The One Where Huntsu Calls Shenanigans

Cue the chorus of Norcross apologists (4.00 / 2)

and grab your popcorn - it should be fun to hear why this is really a good thing.

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 15:05:17 PM CDT

"Shenanigans" is Too Mild a Term... (4.00 / 1)

...this is corrupt on its face.

This is just one more indication that NJ progressives need to put up well coordinated slates across the board in every primary across the state.

Just voting for a Democrat because he/she is better than the Republican alternative isn't good enough; it never was.

The "Ferierro Problem" is statewide (dare I say national!).   Good government progressive Democrats need to, literally, take over the party.  (And I bet we would get lots of crossover votes from decent Republicans and Independents).

The corrupt establishment will pay all manner of lip service to progressive ideas and ideals; but when the cash starts to flow, those ideals are routinely trashed.  

The answer is not a third party (at this time); we need to unite around becoming the dominant force in the Democratic party; not just a bunch of abused window dressing that's taken for granted on election day because "they have no where else to go".

I remain a proud Democrat; it's Norcross and Company that should be ashamed.

As I understand it; Camille Andrews has the legal right to declare her own independence and to tell these bums to piss off; I hope she does it.   Obviously, she's no angel; but it would be nice to have someone in that office that wasn't 100% owned by the machine.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 15:22:20 PM CDT

Nothing Corrupt or wrong (1.00 / 1)

Will the high and mighty please get off of their pedestals.

Whether you agree or not with what Rob Andrews did and the timing of when he did it the bottom line is that someone had to have their name on the ballot for his Congressional seat.

His wife decided to put her name up. The overwhleming majority of that Districts voters knew that Mrs. Andrews would not keep the seat , but they voted her in anyway knowing that a change would come later. Do you think the people of that District are stupid?

So now the change has occured. Camille Andrews wants no part of the seat. Never did. The selection of Donald Norcross , if his last name was Smith , would be highly acclaimed by all of you holier than thou's . But because he is the brother of George Norcross you immediatley think some thing is wrong with him.

None of you even know the guy!

Check his resume. A cutting edge labor leader who has paid his dues both in the labor movement and in Democratic political circles. He is a hard worker who will advocate for the working middle class and make sure that South Jersey has a fighter in Congress. His brother is George Norcross but he has no puppet master.

Donald Norcross will be as good or better a Congressman then either Adler or Stender.

So please stop with all the phony rhetoric and judge the man on his talents and not his last name.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:35:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Disgrace (4.00 / 2)

I can't believe your post.   It doesn't matter what we do or don't know about this guy.  He's Norcross's brother.   This is corruption.  Pure and simple.  

-pb

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by: princetonblue @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:52:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Get to know Donald Norcross (0.00 / 0)

Camden County Democratic Committee Co-Chairman since 2000
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 351 - Asst. Business Mgr.
Southern New Jersey AFL-CIO Central Labor Council - President
Home Port Alliance for USS New Jersey - Vice Chairman
United Way of Camden County - Executive Board Member
Democratic National Committee - National Committeeman
Married, father of three children; residing in Voorhees

Oh my God! What a horrible candidate! Crucify him because you don't like his brother.

There are a lot of hypocrits on this issue.

All of these " progressives" sitting back and judging someone on their geneology instead of their accomplishments.

I thought " we " progressives were different?

   

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 18:46:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The problem (4.00 / 1)

is the manner in which he is being chosen.

I thought "we" progressives understood that sort of thing.

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.

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by: Thurman Hart @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 22:54:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You ARE kidding, right? (4.00 / 1)

He's a party Boss himself.  Co-Chairman in Camden County.  

One Vote. Yours. It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 00:16:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ding! (4.00 / 1)

That's 1!

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:58:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hee hee hee.... (0.00 / 0)

One Vote. Yours. It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 00:03:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And I Quote.... (0.00 / 0)

Cue the chorus of Norcross apologists  (0.00 / 0)
and grab your popcorn - it should be fun to hear why this is really a good thing.

So far, you're a minority of one.

Even if Donald Norcross were truly an independent progressive agent of change free from his brother's influence (which I strongly doubt) the appearance of this is so very dirty that it give's Democrats in the whole state a bad associational stink.

It's not a matter of being "holier than thou"; unless the Republicans somehow get rid of the current candidate and substitute a John Lindsay type progressive/liberal Republican reformer   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...  (not likely lol) I'll certainly urge the voters of the 1st to support the lesser of the two evils; but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't stink.

I repeat; we all need to come together to clean up NJ.  There is no effing need for BOSSES!!!  Let's try a fair and decent brand of democracy for a change!

As for Rob Andrews, that race is over; this is an opportunity for Camille Andrews to show a courageous profile and tell the bums treating this seat as if it was their personal property that she won the votes.

The voters didn't sign some kind of irrevocable pact with the devil.  Nor did Mrs Andrews.  She's allowed to "change her mind", eh?

This move by Norcross is such a raw blatant ugly abuse of power that it makes me want to puke.
 

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 17:42:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Silly arguments (0.00 / 0)

Are you done?

If so get off the pedestal.

No one was disenfranchised. Camille Andrews was a stand in. If you did not know that then you are very , very out of touch.

Donald Norcross has a resume as good as or better then John Adler.

You are just a George Norcross hater. Why. I don't know. He has never been charged with a crime . You don't like him because he is a " boss" .

Grow up!

The Districts that he helps candiates in are well represented.

Get to know Donald Norcross and judge him on his resume , not his brothers.

and please, GET REAL!

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 18:20:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's wrong with ... (4.00 / 4)

not liking him because he is a boss?  Bossism is one of the things that we as progressives are supposed to be against.

Norcross used his power to put Camille Andrews on the line and keep other people from running for the seat.

Had Rob Andrews dropped out and they let anyone run Camille would not have won.  Many other people, including Don Norcross, could have been in the primary election and the voters could have made a choice.

But they were blocked by the power of Norcross from getting on the line, because they knew that going against his wishes would destroy any chance they had of going anywhere in politics.

Essentially one man got to choose who gets that seat, and endowing that much power in one man is wrong.

A second and equally valid point is that Norcross, Andrews and others promised each seeker of this office and the voters that the selection would be made by the members of the County Committee.

But the County Committee isn't making this choice.  The Chair is making this choice.  That means the voters were mislead as to what they were voting for.

I have no problem with Don Norcross as a person.  From what I hear he's a good union man.

But he is getting this seat through bossism and against the democratic and Democratic ideals that make our country and our party great.

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by: huntsu @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:04:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hunstu Said It Well... (4.00 / 1)

...and I agree that Don Norcross (on paper anyway) seems like a splendid fellow and I'm pleased that he hasn't been charged with any crimes.  But surely there must be someone in the first district that is a progressive Democrat that isn't under the thumb of the local political machine?  Are  there any independent Democrats there?

Firstamend07, you just don't seem to get it.

Bossism is bad.

Bossism is undemocratic.

Bossism is regressive.  

Bossism is a diminution of  human freedom.  

Bossism is an assault on the dignity of the individual.

Bossism is a great temptation toward despotism for the "boss".  etc etc etc etc etc

Do you really need to have those spelled out for you at length?    I'm not a scholar like Thurman; I'm sure he could write a book on what's wrong with bossism.

I'm really glad you're with me on opposing the Bush agenda and for the first amendment and for paid family leave etc etc; but on this one, we part company.

All Norcross had to do was to allow the local CC to have a real election with a full slate of candidates running.   In all likelihood, being the Boss, his brother may well have won anyway.....but to have that result simply dictated is a direct and ugly affront to the democratic process.

According to "Wally" at politicker, this will all blow over.....and that's a shame.

PS I'm sure there must be at least another hundred ways to end the sentence "Bossism is....".  Please feel free to add to the list.  Thanks.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:15:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is that the new standard?!?! (0.00 / 0)

...and I'm pleased that he hasn't been charged with any crimes.

Good Grief!

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:32:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That was in response ... (0.00 / 0)

to something written earlier.  

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by: huntsu @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:39:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pure bullshit (4.00 / 4)

no other word comes close.

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.

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by: Thurman Hart @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:30:29 PM CDT

this is outrageous (4.00 / 2)

I have to think of a witty signature about Frank LoBiondo

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by: Hopeful @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:38:04 PM CDT

Stop ! Stop! Stop! (1.00 / 1)

" pure bullshit" , " outrageous". Are you people serious?

From day one everyone knew that Andrews wife was a placeholder.

All of you " pure" Democrats are making me vomit!

Everyone on this site is running up the Adler flag and jumping on the bandwagon and that is fine because John Adler deserves all the support he can get. But you know what, Donald Norcross has a better background in helping people and as a labor person than John Adler!

You don't like him because he is the brother of George Norcross. Well guess what , you better go ask John Adler what he thinks of George Norcross and the support that Adler has gotten overthe years from the South Jersey Democrats.

Please check Donald Norcross's resume before crucifying the guy and please stop all of this " bullshit!"  

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:53:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ding! (4.00 / 3)

That's 2!

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 16:59:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

no (0.00 / 0)

It's still one.  Firstamend07 is a lone voice in the wilderness.

Can you ask Mr. Jerseyfresh to weigh in on this since he supported Andrews in the Senate primary?

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by: rachael'sdad @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:25:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

How Dare You Compare Either Norcross To... (0.00 / 0)

.....Jesus Christ?  Please don't do that again.

Believe me, I understand the world of realpolitic; but for you to pretend that this asinine move doesn't stink is an indication that you're out of touch.

The future of the Democratic party does not include people like George Norcross or Joe Ferierro.

Bossism is not consistent with democracy; whether the boss is Republican or Democratic the stink is the same.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 17:51:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You apparently don't understand (0.00 / 0)

At one time you may have understood " realpolitic" but no more.

Donald Norcross will make a very good Congressman. No one except the self righteous will state differently. The District will vote for him and be happy that he is representing them.

If you are having a tough time with this just call him Donald Smith. See, now he is a Progessive candidate that you can suppport.

or go vote for the Republican...

After all this is a Democracy and  you have a choice!

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 18:54:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We understand just fine (4.00 / 1)

A Democrat is going to win this seat.  

The members of the Democratic Party could have been given a selection of many Democrats of different backgrounds and different issues to select from.

They may have picked Don Norcross against the other candidates, and that would have been fine.

The problem is not with Don Norcross, but with the fact that the Democratic voters were not given the opportunity to express who it was they want to represent them.

By your version of realpolitic we should just pick the most progressive and qualified of us and appoint them to be members of Congress, sort of like a Politburo.  

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by: huntsu @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:10:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They do have a choice (0.00 / 0)

If the voters of the District do not like Donald Norcross, or resent him being " hand picked" then they can vote for the Republican.

Please stop trying to hide the fact that this is a " Norcross " issue. Everyone on this site has decided that Democracy is being destroyed by this selection.

Give the guy a fair break. He is an excelent candidate who has paid his dues to the Party and has helped many people in that District.

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:53:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So First District Dems Should "Take it or Leave The Party"? (4.00 / 1)

That's absurd.   As I said up top, practically speaking, i would still advise folks to hold their noses (but first know that there is a stink there and vow to remember) vote for Don over the likely Republican.   That's the "real political" bottom line for this fall; however, I submit to the rest of the Blue Jersey community (I suspect you're not reachable) that the current political framework that drives NJ politics is not sustainable.....and that plans need to be drawn for the coming years.

The existing framework has resulted in a state in which the quality of life is on the decline and in which the government is virtually bankrupt.   There's lots and lots of scamming going on and the pattern is systemic and bipartisan.

People like George Norcross and Joe Ferierro  are part of the problem; and it's up to gut level progressives to become part of the solution.

No doubt Norcross and Ferierro are both multimillionaires; I suggest they both take the money and retire from the scene.  Of course they can't/won't do that.   This is the nature of corruption and greed.   No quantity of power and/or moeny can satisfy the malignant impetus toward "growth".

Ultimately, this is all a matter of citizen/voter education.   If most people have no idea of what is going on; then all this will continue until the whole system collapses of it's own corrupt weight.   That's the inevitable outcome when a body is riddled with strong/powerful/growing cancer cells.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:32:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stop calling me a liar (0.00 / 0)

I find it insulting.

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by: huntsu @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:33:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i understand your loyalty to Camden... (4.00 / 1)

and loyalty is a very important thing which everyone needs...but i hope you will sit back and examine the entire process in the 1st district....If you truly think everything that these guys have done has been democratic and honest, than i think you loyalty has been blinded by what is fair...

This is an utter disgrace and we have primaries for a reason and we have elections for a reason. If Camille Andrews ended up being the next congresswoman, i would have fewer issues with this but the fact that they are switching her out...What we don't need is a group of people sitting around a table saying - now its this person's turn be a congressman. This system is so screwed up. You can talk all about how qualified Donald Norcross is and I am sure he is very qualified but this entire process has been the most undemocratic thing I've ever seen. There are no 'placeholders' for congressional seats so a bunch of powerbrokers in the back can pick who gets the seat. For all your loyalty and dedication to Camden, I hope you can see what is wrong with this picture.

and stop making this about the qualifications of Donald Norcross - It doesn't matter what his or her name would be, you don't go around picking members of congress, and the fact that the guy they picked is the brother of the biggest political boss in south jersey shows even more how screwed up this process is.

For you, someone who frequented this site and made Frank Lautenberg out to be one of the worst, how you can just turn a complete blind eye to whats happening in this process, it seems pretty interesting to an observer.  

Pro-Monmouth  

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by: vingopal @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:13:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is about Norcross (0.00 / 0)

Camille Andrews, of her own free will was a placeholder. The voters knew this and it did not bother them.

The voters now have a choice between Donald Norcross and the Republican. They still have a choice.

Now, is Donald Norcross a candiate that the people who frequent this site can back? I certanly hope so. He is as qualified as Adler and has a record in both the labor movement and in the community to prove it.

But will you hold his last name against him?

From the comments I have seen it appears most " progressives' believe that your last name is more important than your resume.

That is a real shame.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:59:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Talk About "Silly Arguments" LOL (0.00 / 0)

And I quote...

From the comments I have seen it appears most " progressives' believe that your last name is more important than your resume.

Come on, I know that you aren't stupid....and that argument is just that.

I'm not going to repeat all that's been said above except to say that the core objection to DN is that his "candidacy" is tantamount to being appointed to Congress by a boss.

If you can defend that practice, be my guest....but it has almost nothing to do with his name (so yes, you may as well defend the nepotism too).

I want to see the contract Camille Andrews signed; I wonder if there was a clause that allowed George to appoint Don to the seat with no other democratic process?

What's sad is that someone as generally decent and progressive as you can be so blinded by your own connection/loyalty to a particular political machine that you aren't able/willing to even accept that the nausea we feel about this is justified.

This is a rift that has been around for years now; this particular situation will, I pray, be "the last straw" for many good and decent progressives who have not yet been bought off or co-opted.  

It's time to organize and mobilize the Democratic ran and file so that we become a party that represents clean unbossed democracy that serves the people...the ordinary unconnected working class, middle class, poor and decent rich people!!!

Surely you agree with me on that much firstamen07, eh?   Or does your "loyalty" to Norcross & Co extend into the future as well?

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:51:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And from Day 1 ... (4.00 / 4)

Yes, we did know from Day 1 that Camille Andrews was a placeholder.

And from Day 1 we said it was a bullshit and outrageous move.

Go back and read the posts on this.  We've been clear from the beginning that it was a bullshit move.

Again, no one I've read has gone against Don Norcross.  We are opposing the process by which he was chosen.

Why didn't he put his name on the ballot for the primary?  Why isn't the County Committee allowed to hear from all the people who want this seat and make a selection as required by law?

Because of bossism.

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by: huntsu @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 19:07:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Voters were not upset (1.00 / 1)

The District voters were not upset with the process and they are the only people who have a right to complain.  

The process is not perfect but the end result is that the voters of this district will get a chance to vote for a Progressive, labor candidate or a Republican.

I ask that everyone get over the last name , get over the process, and support what can be a very good a Congressional candidate.

No matter who was picked there would have been complaints.

Was it wrong for Lautenberg to be hand picked by the bosses to replace " the Torch" a few years back?  

Until the world of politics is reinvented in a " pure" manner things like this will sometimes happen.  

All I am asking is that all the venom be released now and get over it. Donald Norcross deserves to be judged on his own merit.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:08:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They were told .. (4.00 / 3)

that the County Committee would select.   They were told that there were many people interested in the seat.  They were told Camille might also stand for the committee.

That's what they were told, clearly and expressly.

And I've said that the Lautenberg thing was wrong.  I've said I disagreed with the Supreme Court.

But, not for nothing here, Andrews turned down the spot before it went to Lautenberg.  Holt and Pallone did too.

This is not about purity, either.  This is about allowing the voters to select their nominees and their representatives.

And you are being highly insulting and abusive in this thread.  I've lost a lot of respect for you.

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by: huntsu @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 20:36:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What You See as "Venom" is From The POV of.. (4.00 / 1)

...the folks you're arguing with here an expression of righteous indignation and disgusted dismay at an action that is clearly (to us at any rate) despicable.

The fact that you honestly see those expressions as "venom" shows how tone deaf you are in this case.

I can see that you honestly believe that you're right and that you honestly believe that Norcross and brother are great and good guys who "know what's best" for the people of the 1st CD.

Is this loyalty purely based on emotional/ideological attachment?  Or has Norcross done some great things for you and/or your family for which you feel gratitude or obligation?   If the latter, please understand that they ain't done squat for me so I don't share your feelings on that account.

If your loyalty is based on ideology and/or some clear/logical political strategy,  then I invite you to give us some solid reasons/arguments for why it's a good thing for there to be a political machine/boss that has this kind of power.  

Power to, in effect, APPOINT HIS BROTHER TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!

Again, if your loyalty is based on subjective identification with Norcross to the point where you "feel his pain" as your own; then there's nothing to explain; you love the guy....you're his "Terry Malloy"; but if there's more to it than that......if you can actually articulate, using facts and logic, why what he's doing here is a good thing; then please make your case without insulting me or anyone else who's expressed an opposing view.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 21:11:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My Final Word. (0.00 / 0)

The system is not perfect. It never will be.

Therefore I will not argue about the system. George Norcross has been deemed " the boss" . What does that mean? It means he built an organization over the past ten years that has transformed the counties of Gloucester, Cumberland, Salem, parts of Cape May and Atlantic into Democratic Party strongholds that have elected good Labor candidates and good candidates who , for the most part protect the working middle class while helping those who are not fortunate enough to be middle class.

The guy just can't be all bad!!

Now we have a situation where a clear placeholder candidate has stepped aside and a substitute has been selected. Not selected to be a Congressman , but selected to be a Candidate for Congress.  Everyone is so adament over giving the people of the District a choice that they have forgotten that they will still have a choice in November.

Donald Norcross will win that election because he is an excellent candidate.

I guess where I differ is that I can't spend all of my time fighting Quixotie battles over principles. There are too many " real " battles that must be fought and won. Sometimes in order to achieve a better good you just have to get into the pit and fight it out. It is not pleasant, it is dirty, but if it helps people in the end then it was worth it. Idealism is great and very noble, but someone still has to put the trash out at the end of the day.    

At the end of that day I want a good progressive labor friendly candidate representing that  District. Donald Norcross is that candidate and I am happy to have him running.

I hope all of you who do not agree with my philosophy at least agree on that.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 22:27:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

An army of strawmen (4.00 / 4)

No one here has said that Norcross will be a bad Congressman.

Every machine provides constituent services.  Frank Hague is still well-loved by many people here in Jersey City because he gave them so much.  In the process, he trampled their rights and gave them the highest property taxes in the country.  The problem with bossism isn't that it ignores legitimate needs.  The problem is that it feeds off of those needs and makes itself rich and powerful in the process.  Does Norcross meet that description?  That isn't for me to say.

No one is all bad.  Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm told, had a lovely singing voice.  That doesn't excuse his actions.  The question is whether any person of authority abuses that power for personal gain.  Again, it isn't for me to answer that question.

The problem with saying Camille was "a clear placeholder" is that she denied it.  Yeah, everyone pretty much thought she was lying.  It doesn't matter.  She still denied it (even while winking and saying she'd "step aside if asked").

You want to pretend the general and primary are one and the same.  The general will decide if voters want a Democrat or Republican.  Given the history of the district, it will go for the Democrat.  The primary was to decide WHICH Democrat would go on to the general.  That purpose was defeated.

Donald Norcross will win the general because he is the Democrat.  He may also be an excellent candidate - all indicates are that he will be.  But let's not pretend things are different than they really are.

Are you saying that the general election will be a "real" battle?  That hardly seems likely.  The fact is that fights over the process by which our party is run are real.  Ask Joe Ferriero who spent what could best be described as "a crapload of money" to keep his position atop the Bergen County Committee.  

And I have to think if you didn't believe this was real, you wouldn't bother replying as often as you did.

If you think it's dirty dealing with the other party; then you ought to try getting in the mix to reform our own party.  As far as trash goes, it was once an ideological battle to get someone to pick up the garbage.

The ultimate problem, of course, is that the election laws are outdated.  There is no reason why a special primary election couldn't have been held - plenty of time, plenty of interest.  But, alas, the laws wouldn't allow it.  So we have a crappy second-place process.  Well, as it turns out, that has been manipulated to the point where it might as well not exist.

It's bizarre.  We held a special election to fill Bob Menendez' unexpired term from November to January.  But we can't hold a special primary to fill an entire term.

To be fair, a lot of the frustration aimed at the Norcross boys is fueled by problems elsewhere.  But if they didn't want the uproar, all they had to do was let Camille win the general and resign.  Then we'd have had a regular election cycle.  In my opinion, that would have been a more honorable and more democratic means of doing it.

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.

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by: Thurman Hart @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 23:14:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You Still Don't Get it.... (0.00 / 0)

...whatever "good" bosses/political machines do is "by the way".

Their primary reason for being is to maintain and expand their own power.  This is, by definition, self serving.

Where do Norcross and Ferierro get their money from?  On one level it's from putting together networks of campaign "contributors" who "know which side their bread is buttered on".  On a deeper level it's from all the peripheral sweetheart deals and jobs that eventually accrue to their families and supporters.

As I see it....Pols will give away/waste ten million taxpayer dollars just to get a 50,000 "contribution"  or a 150K job for someone well connected.   No wonder NJ is broke.
Pay to play is alive and well in NJ: STILL.

All manner of toxic anti consumer and anti labor effects are realized when the people in charge are progressive at the epidermal level and regressive at the core.

Look at the way developers have been raping our state.   Do you really think that didn't happen with the full co-operation of the party machines?

Look at the way insurance companies and banks and all manner of commercial enterprises are permitted to shaft ordinary New Jerseyans.  Do you think that the machine pols aren't in on all that "gravy"?

NJ is rife with all manner of corruption (leglized and otherwise) at all levels of governance and people like Norcross and Ferierro are at the heart of it.

What's needed is a state wide progressive reform movement that can bring together the vast majority of New Jerseyans of all parties that are thoroughly disgusted with the status quo.

I recall you were a great cheerleader for family leave, as was I; in a NJ in which there are no more "bosses", guess what?  The pols will be more responsive to real people.

A large part of the answer is implementing the most stringent campaign finance laws constitutionally possible.   I somehow dobt that George Norcross and Joe Ferierro will support such an effort......yet you're content to be in bed with Norcross under the rationale that "it's dirty" but needs to be done.    Give me a break.

The kinds of people who rise to the top in a system of bossism are not the best and the brightest, the ones with the highest ethical standards who wish to serve the needs of the people;  the people who rise to the top in a bossist system are the most ruthless and the most corrupt.   That's how the culture of bossism perpetuates itself.

I know of old Italians who STILL think Mussolini was a great man....after all, he did help some of the downtrodden peasants and did build better schools and hospitals in areas that were neglected and did "make the trains run on time".....but he was a piece of human shit that corrupted and ruined a nation in service to his own egoic power trips. THAT'S what bossism is about.

Lest any Republican lurking about get the wrong idea; I also need to say that when you people are in office.....the pols don't need to be bribed to screw the people; y'all do it for "free" as a matter of course since you don't believe in much of a government anyway.   In your world the "private sector" is god and the public interest is a "communal" abomination.

So, again, the question seems to come down to the "lessor of the two evils"...and I say that time is rapidly running out for the establishments of BOTH parties to be playing that game.

Will Norcross be a "bad" congressman, nah....he'll be another "moderate" Dem.   But will he be a great congressman?  Will he take the lead in proposing and organizing his colleagues and constituents to break new ground in the fulfillment of a progressive agenda....that is to say; an agenda that corporate America isn't going to like?    I doubt it.

The first is a district that could elect a true progressive superstar; instead they're likely to get another halfway decent hack who's only real loyalty will be to his brother's political machine.  What a shame.

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by: Nick Lento @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:15:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Someone call a (0.00 / 0)

waaaaaaambulance.......

Now is that how we hold forth progressive discourse? I feel like I am in grade school again.  Make your point instead of telling others to stop making theirs.  

Convince us why we should believe that our leaders should be CHOSEN FOR US instead of elected by popular vote?  I'm listening.......

One Vote. Yours. It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 00:09:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You don't run (4.00 / 1)

to pull a "bait and switch" game on the electorate - they WILL remember in November.  I ran in the Primary and you can bet if I had won - I would run in the General.  THAT is what Progressive Democrats do.  They don't step down for a Party Boss pick. That's just disgusting.  

One Vote. Yours. It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 00:19:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

very different (0.00 / 0)

Adler, while being a member of and supported by the Norcross machine, has walked a very fine tightrope in his efforts to simultaneously serve the machine as well as his own progressive principles.

Being pro-labor is not enough to identify  someone as liberal or progressive.  There are plenty of labor leaders who are anti-choice, anti-environment, anti-marriage equality, and as Steve Sweeney has proven, depending on the particular kind of labor in question, anti-labor.

The Building and Construction Trades, where Donald Norcross got his start in the labor movement, is notorious for being the most conservative.

So there is nothing in the resume that you have provided that tells me that Norcross is more liberal or progressive than Rob Andrews, who is/was a more conservative than most Democrats, much less someone who is as clearly liberal and progressive, despite the pressures on him to be less so, as John Adler.

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by: rachael'sdad @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:17:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

First, a thank you is in order (4.00 / 2)

for huntsu, as precious few people outside the 1st District have really seemed to give a rat's ass about the shit-factory that passes for the democratic process down here. I've been enjoying your updates for several months now (keep 'em coming!).

Anyway, at this point in the election cycle, is it too late to mount some sort of opposition to all this?

Concerted and purposive action needs to be taken by the people of New Jersey to demonstrate that this is simply unacceptable. But what?

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by: CoB NJ @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 00:22:53 AM CDT

Now is The Time.... (4.00 / 2)

...to organize and plan for the future.

GN probably waited all this time to install his brother just because he knew that it would be difficult/impossible to mount a serious alternative in the time left.

There's no reason Norcross can't be primaried in two years.   George may be "the boss" but the people there still have a right to organize themselves and to vote to break the machine at every electoral opportunity.

Not easy; but still possible.

Also, we need to find legislators to write and submit the kinds of electoral reforms Thurman just mentioned above....this kind of crap must never be permitted to happen again.

As Norcross might say;".... this is all quite legal and within the rules...let's get real, I'm the Boss and that's the way it is...."

We have the power to change "the way it is" if we find the will and the courage to use it.

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by: Nick Lento @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:30:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Start with a Progressive First PAC (0.00 / 0)

Ask people who would have contributed to an honestly nominated candidate to instead, during this election cycle contribute to a PAC that will support a primary challenge in 2010.

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by: Dvd Avins @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:27:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

actually (0.00 / 0)

I think that more progressives outside CD1 and South Jersey in general "give more of a rat's ass about the shit-factory that passes for the democratic process" down there than most progressives down there.

The answer is to inform people about this situation and start a Real Camden Democrats movement, using the RBD model.

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by: rachael'sdad @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:22:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

there's no real call for this (0.00 / 0)

only one person has defended this choice here.  There are probably plenty of them down there trying to make a change.

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by: huntsu @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 06:53:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

feeling sick in the 1st district (4.00 / 4)

As someone who lives in the district and somewhat believed in the Camden County Democratic Committee, I am appalled by the latest power play by the Norcross machine. If putting someone up as placeholder, then taking them down without any electoral process, followed by inserting one's brother as the candidate in question, isn't blatant nepotism and subversion of the democratic process, I don't know what is. Of course, we've already had an election in June for who should be the Democratic nominee in the First: Camille Andrews placed first, John Camarrana (sp) second, and Mahdi Ibn-Ziyad, the person for whom I voted, third. If Camille isn't the nominee, then Camarrana should be.

No reform is going to take place from outside the 1st district: It has to be from within, and it's going to take a hell of amount of work. I thought, originally, that the Camden County Democratic Committee could be changed from within the machine; that view, after this power play, seems naive to me now.

I feel sick and disgusted to be a South Jersey Democrat today. Some reform is desperately needed. Earlier, someone suggested a political PAC to be formed, but how do we get a legitimate challenger, a la the Bergen reformers' work, going and on the ballot? Perhaps we should support the Green/Socialist candidate or recruit Mahdi again as an independent Democrat.

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by: Martin @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:07:08 AM CDT

Martin, I Suggest You Consider a Run!!! (4.00 / 1)

In 2010.  (at the very least for CC...and maybe for the seat itself!) Meanwhile, I suspect that a few thousand/hundred write in votes for Mahdi in November 08 might also send a message.

The "Don" is more likely to vote progressively if he feels some heat.....if he was really smart he would refuse the "appointment" and demand a full democratic process (allowing opponents etc).....which he would likely win anyway given the CC there.

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by: Nick Lento @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:56:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]