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Lautenberg: no regret over early war support?

by: Juan Melli

Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:32:26 PM EDT



Just days after the invasion of Iraq, Senator Frank Lautenberg responded to criticism of Bush by saying that "the days of dissent...are essentially over." Today he declined to express regret for those statements.

On March 17, 2003 -- three days before the invasion of Iraq -- Senator Tom Daschle said "I'm saddened, saddened that this president failed so miserably at diplomacy that we're now forced to war. Saddened that we have to give up one life because this president couldn't create the kind of diplomatic effort that was so critical for our country."

Some considered these to be controversial words at the time. One week later, Senator Lautenberg appeared on Hannity & Colmes on Fox News to discuss Daschle's comments and said "the days of dissent I think are essentially over" and that instead people should only be disagreeing about "the behavior of Saddam Hussein".

COLMES: Senator, I want to ask you what the tone is in the Senate right now. You know some Democrats, it seems -- you know, Sean was mentioning what Senator Daschle said. Some Americans are upset with some of the comments Democrats have made. Is there unity at the moment?

LAUTENBERG: Well, there's unity in preference behind the war, behind the troops. We want everything to be there that protects them, that gives them the best opportunities they have to conclude this war with minimum casualties. There's full support for the effort.

The days of dissent I think are essentially over. People have a right to disagree. But if they're disagreeing, they ought to disagree with the behavior of Saddam Hussein. The cruelty and madness with which he held people's lives in fragile hands. But there's no protest there and I don't get it.

I vividly remember the early days of the war. They were very lonely and from left to right the chorus of voices trying to silence dissent were deafening. It's disappointing to see that Lautenberg was among those voices. Senator Lautenberg should know that nobody gives up their right to disagree with or criticize the government because of war. In fact he's been among the war's harshest critics -- even calling Dick Cheney "the lead chickenhawk".

More important to me than someone's past mistakes is to know if they learned from those mistakes. Which is why I was disappointed that when Rob Andrews was asked if his support for the Iraq war was a mistake, he dodged the question.

Asked if Lautenberg regretted making those statements, spokesperson Julie Roginsky told Blue Jersey in a statement that "What the Senator regrets is trusting George Bush and Rob Andrews not to deceive Congress and the American people about the intelligence on Iraq and WMD. Once it became clear that there were no WMDs, and that the Bush Administration falsified intelligence to sell the war, no one spoke out quicker and more forcefully than Senator Lautenberg."

The statement continued:

"In fact, by July 2003, Senator Lautenberg was raising serious questions about the war in Iraq and, by September, Senator Lautenberg declared publicly, "the American people need to be told the truth about the situation in Iraq."

While Congressman Andrews continued - for three years - to enable Bush on the war, Frank Lautenberg was working to hold Bush and Cheney accountable, and start bringing our troops home.  

Rob Andrews was voting with Bush and the Republicans until the Summer of 2006.  As early as 2003, Frank Lautenberg was among a brave group of 12 Dems who voted against Bush's $87 billion Iraq Supplemental in October 2003.  Lautenberg has voted for every resolution to withdraw our troops.  Andrews voted against several withdrawal resolutions before his fortuitous 2006 epiphany.

There is no comparison between their two records on Iraq."

I'll repeat exactly what I wrote regarding Andrews' non-answer: Not giving a straight answer to that question suggests either an unwillingness to admit a mistake or the belief that it wasn't a mistake to begin with. Neither possibility is inspiring.

What do you think?

Juan Melli :: Lautenberg: no regret over early war support?
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What I think. (3.50 / 2)
I think it stinks. It's one of the main reasons that on a scale fo 0 to 100, I'd only give Lautenberg an 80.

But I'd only give Andrews a 60, in part because he was even worse at the same time.


Why is regret so hard? (3.83 / 6)
It's like 9/11 triggered this insane response in people, and they are unwilling to say, "I straightened up and regained my sanity, and I'm sorry I lost it."

Right on (4.00 / 4)
It's not like voters would freak out if a candidate said "Yeah, I was wrong, and here's why I changed my mind" every once in a while.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure... (4.00 / 1)
What you guys expect, really.

Please ask yourself, if we had gone in and found anthrax bombs and/or nuclear material, would the invasion have been a mistake then?

My point is, the war was a mistake, but I think there is room for both of these guys to say, based on what was known/believed at that time, I believe my vote to authorize force was justified.

I guess what I am asking is, would there be a set of circumstances in your mind that would justify a pre-emtive strike? And I'm not necessarily saying there has to be, but I am asking if that is a litmus test you are applying here.

Please don't misread my thoughts here, the war was definitely a mistake and a disaster (hindsight being 20/20), but at the same time, I can see where based on the intelligence at the time, these guys could use 'the intelligence of the time' to justify their votes.

Again I believe we made a colossal error, but I think we did it sincerely. I don't believe the administration 'knew' there were no weapons and went in anyway.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


Re: (4.00 / 3)
Please ask yourself, if we had gone in and found anthrax bombs and/or nuclear material, would the invasion have been a mistake then?
In my opinion, yes. A country possessing weapons is not a justifiable reason for a pre-emptive military strike. (tangent: It's especially hypocritical considering we turned a blind eye during the Iraq-Iran war while they acquired some of the weapons they used in that war.)

Unless an attack is really imminent (and how do we know we can trust the intelligence?), I don't envision many scenarios where attacking someone who hasn't attacked us is justified.


[ Parent ]
Sincerely? (3.67 / 3)
We kicked out Hans Blix, Mohammed ElBaredei and the IAEA before they were finished inspecting (and hadn't found any WMD's at that time).

We rammed through whatever # resolution through the UN that said we would use force as a last resort.

We had Colin Powell put on a pathetic performance in the UN, using Thurman's stick figures to indicate mobile bomb labs.  (Sorry Thurman.)

The intelligence was "stovepiped" up to the top levels of government.  It was not just poor intelligence; it ommitted dissenting opinions.

Have you ever read the Downing Street memo?

Have you heard of PNAC (Project for the New American Century?)  Its a right wing group with a maifesto for US domination of the world, starting with the Middle East.

Begun by William Kristol and Robert Kagan, they wrote an open letter in 1998 to President Clinton urging him to remove Saddam Hussein from power.

Finally, its the oil, baby.

Pre-emptive strike?  We are a danger to ourselves and others.

Pogo:  We have met the enemy and they are us.

You might say I'm a tad bitter.


[ Parent ]
Another Outrage (0.00 / 0)
I was going to continue my comment by noting how Judith friggin' Miller created a a pro-war climate in the run up to the war.

She was basically a stenographer for Ahmed Chalabi, our mouthpiece in exile, whose group received $350,000 per month to tell us there were WMD's in Iraq.

I just came across this article in the NYT, entitled:

"Hidden Hand of Pentagon Helps Steer Military Analysts"

http://tinyurl.com/4xgmou

Basically, all those retired military brass you've been hearing on the TV and on op-ed pages are lobbyists for defense contractors who were given talking points by the Pentagon.

I have no idea whether any of this influenced either Lautenberg or Andrews or their regrets or non-regrets.



[ Parent ]
The real problem in my mind (3.67 / 3)
(and it's one that was obvious to anyone who'd studied Islam, terrorism or the middle east for more than ten minutes) was the conflation of Saddam and al-Qaeda, which was laughable on its face then, and still is now.

That alone should have raised the red flags necessary to stop the rush to authorize pre-emptive, unnecessary war: war that's made us less safe, not more.


[ Parent ]
It was always nonsense (3.00 / 1)
The obvious reason being the fact that the United States military, in 1991, was actually at war with Iraq yet Hussein was afraid to use the WMD he had.  [In a context where he was willing to fight the US and launch missiles at Israeli civilians.]  Since that was the case, the idea that he was to suddenly use them on New York was just nonsense.  



I have to think of a witty signature about Frank LoBiondo


[ Parent ]
Re (0.00 / 0)
Please ask yourself, if we had gone in and found anthrax bombs and/or nuclear material, would the invasion have been a mistake then?

Hey, what not ask if Sadam Hussein had put a gun to the head of Barbara Bush on Christmas Eve...

The fact is that all of the "whatevers" in the world weren't true.  If any candidate wants to say, "Based on what I knew then.." that's legitimate.  But that isn't what is going on.  Both Andrews and Lautenberg are trying to act as if they never supported the war.  That's straight BS.  

There is a way to play straight with the voters and explain one's position honestly and within the changing context of the world.  Then there is the way things are being done.

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.


[ Parent ]
Yes, it was wrong (0.00 / 0)
Many of us believed that Saddam Hussein was a bad guy with bad weapons before the invasion and we still opposed the war

Iraq did not attack us, did not have any plans we could ferret out to attack us, and our attack on them took resources against nailing the bastards who DID attack us.

We abandoned the effort in Afghanistan to a smaller than necessary force in order to begin planning the Iraq War, and then made it worse when we implemented the Iraq War.

We knew the Iraq War was a mistake before it happened, we were proven right whether he had WMD or not, and we are asking that legislators recognize that they were wrong.

If they can't see that this was the wrong move, then they may decide doing exactly the same thing again in the future is a good idea.

And I don't want people like that making decisions on war and peace.


[ Parent ]
I think it's unproductive (4.00 / 1)
It feels like a demand for "I told you so" satisfaction by those of us who were certain of our antiwar convictions.  

Campaigns have strategic reasons for dodging questions-- obviously they decide in many cases that a straight answer is a detriment. I don't like it either, but what really matters is what Lautenberg has done since that quote and what he's going to do in the future, not his willingness to prostrate himself before our righteous indignation about what he said four years ago.


explain (4.00 / 1)
If I had told people that they should no longer speak out against the government, I would welcome the opportunity to amend the record.

I don't understand why we so easily accept the idea that politicians shouldn't be held accountable for their past actions. Likewise, I don't understand their aversion to discussing mistakes, as if doing so might tip off voters to the fact that they're not perfect.


[ Parent ]
it's not substance (4.00 / 1)
We are holding them accountable, by voting. I just don't think how deep his apology is is a substantive issue.  

I agree completely that it's aggravating, and I suspect the candidate who admits guilt wins over the candidate who equivocates -- but even that is more about strategy than substance.

What matters is what they say to other senators in the back room -- how they vote, how they persuade- how they lead.  

I'd rather judge on his votes than his quotes.


[ Parent ]
ok (4.00 / 2)
Understanding how he thinks is important to me. Not to rehash the past, but because it's the only way we can judge what he will do in the future. He got duped in 2002.

But he also voted for the Military Commissions Act in 2006. Had he learned nothing about how the administration will use lies and fear mongering to gain and then abuse power? Now we're left trying to restore the Constitution bit by bit.

I'd like to know that someone has learned from their mistakes so that hopefully when a similar situation arrises in the future, we don't have to go back and fix every new mess we create.


[ Parent ]
then focus on the Military Commission Act of 2006 (0.00 / 0)
Let's talk about that -- it does sound like a good way to determine if he's learned from his mistakes -- but that's a different subject from how he handles questions about past quotes or whether he "admits" mistakes or not.

So what is it? (I admit I don't know.)


[ Parent ]
re: (4.00 / 1)
The Military Commission Act was also in the past. I don't understand where the line is being drawn about what can/can't or should/shouldn't be discussed. Are you just saying that votes are okay but public statements aren't?

[ Parent ]
This is not theoretical... (0.00 / 0)
I'd like to know that someone has learned from their mistakes so that hopefully when a similar situation arrises in the future, we don't have to go back and fix every new mess we create.

There's a "good" chance that Cheney/Bush will fabricate or instigate some pretext to initiate "hostilities" upon Iran before the November elections.

Lautenberg's original "take" was that, once a "war" starts, you have to put aside dissent and support the troops.

The problem with that "rationale" is at least two fold;

It's possible to be against the war and the policy that justifies it while STILL being "for the trops".   In fact the BEST way to support our troops is STILL the same as it was in 2003...and that is to get them the hell out of Iraq asap.

Also, it allows a rogue president to abuse their commander in chief authority so as to lock us into counterproductive wasteful and costly wars just so we can feel like we're being "patriotic" and "supporting our troops".

As far as FL vs RA on this issue, Lautenberg was never as hawkish on the war as Amdrews and he turned on Bush/Cheney much sooner, sharper and stronger than did Andrews.    Neither was as good a Senator Byrd....but a is imho better in general terms.

And why his people haven't put up the whole "Chickenhawk" speech on youtube is beyond me.

If it starts to look like Bush/Cheney are about to try to pull more of this contrived crap in Iran; the Democrats should move for IMMEDIATE remedial action up to and including impeachment and removal of both Bush and Cheney......... and, if necessary,  make it THE voting issue in the November elections.    

I doubt that the Republicans would be willing to back another bullshit "war" in the face of an election.


[ Parent ]
title of this post is about "regret" (0.00 / 0)
It's about Lautenberg's early war support, which he has now disavowed, just -- in my opinion-- not enough for Juan (or you).

If the post were about the 2006 Military Commission Act, that is a different subject.  Has Lautenberg disowned that vote?  

The question is, how much do politicians have to "admit"?  I say that's not as important as how they vote, and you both seem to agree, since now you're bringing up a vote.


[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 1)
To be clear, I think someone's rationale and thought process is much more revealing and useful than how they cast any particular vote.

[ Parent ]
So - what's the strategic reason? (0.00 / 0)
What's the reason for acting as if voters are so simple minded that they will not remember what happened?

The fact is that his ongoing descent into fantasy that he was "always against the war" is very definitely "what Lautenberg has done".  

No one is asking him to fall down and beg forgiveness.  We're just asking that he tell the truth.  If that's too much; then something is very definitely wrong.

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.


[ Parent ]
You Raise a Valid Question.... (4.00 / 1)
.....most of us have a reluctance to admit to error.  Or to admit to being conned.

If everything the Bush administration was saying about Saddam Hussein and Iraq before the invasion was actually true; then the war might have had a shred of justification.......and even then, I say "might" because the assertions could have been proven, and possibly dealt with,  with methods short of an all out pre-emptive military attack.

I never trusted or believed the Bush administration.   Millions of us didn't.

I knew, before and after 9-11 that the Bushies (witness how they stole the Florida election) were lying corrupt bastards who could not be trusted.   Millions of us did.  

(I remember the low turnout of supporters in DC on Bush's innauguration day....and how there were more of us demonstrating/protesting in the freezing wet weather that day than there were supporters cheering......I remember thinking at the time that this would be a one term president and thinking also that they would need some kind of major distraction if they were to somehow make the American people forget about the stolen election...)

I knew that there was a strong likelihood that the military industrial complex would seize upon the "terrorism threat" as a way of ramping up its profitability since the cold war was winding down.   Millions of us did.

It's a shame that people like Frank Lautenberg and Rob Andrews who were in positions of power and might have made a difference back then were both taken in by the outright LIES of the Bush administration.  They should have known better.

Those millions of us throughout the planet of us who were out in the streets demonstrating back in 2002 and 2003 were right.

I remember seeing Frank Pallone on C-Span years ago at night with a couple of colleagues speaking to a virtualy empty chamber.....calling out the Bush administration in excrutiating detail and at great length for their lies vis a vis Iraq and in other areas.   As I recall, Rob Andrews wasn't part of that vociferous crew.

Lautenberg is a flawed character.   I wish he would come around and say that he deeply regretted, and is ashamed of,  his early vote and his support for Bush's war.    His mistake, and it was a BIG mistake, was in BELIEVING the con job.

If I were in congress, and I knew that (or had strong reason to suspect that) a sitting president had lied us into a war, I would be demanding that impeachment proceedings be initiated.      I wish Lautenberg, and EVERY member of congress had the courage to do this.

Our choices in this Senatorial primary are between two imperfect candidates.

As regards the war that the Bush administration lied us into, my sense is that Lautenberg has been a stronger critic than Andrews.....and that means something.  


We're just asking that he tell the truth.  If that's too much; then something is very definitely wrong.

That applies to both of these imperfect candidates.  

Does anyone actually believe Andrews' stated rationales for breaking his word and declaring at the last minute?

Is Lautenberg stubborn and prideful to the point where he's unwilling to flat out say he made a major blunder/mistake in believing Bush et al and voting to authorize Bush's war?  Yes!

Neither of these gentlemen are perfect, we need to choose the least flawed of the two.


[ Parent ]
Andrews Iraq Policy (0.00 / 0)
I just thoroughly read Andrews' Iraq policy speech from 2006 because I've heard a few people mention it.  I can't say I agree with everything he says, but it really seems like he understands the situation.  It starts off a little typical, but gets pretty meaty toward the end.

http://www.house.gov/list/pres...

Full disclosure - I am supporting Andrews over Lautenberg right now because I think they had essentially the same stance on the war, and I think it's time for the Sen. Byrd's of the world to retire.  But anyone who wants to give the Andrews-Lautenberg race a fair take should read Andrews' Iraq speech.


Senator Byrd's Wisdom is Worth... (4.00 / 2)
....a thousand Rob Andrews.

Being right matters more than being young.

Understanding counts more than glibness.

This runs 9:24  I realize that's an eternity for some...but I urge y'all to make an effort to watch this old man with occasionally halting speech and Parkinson's tremors kick ass.

If Andrews AND Lautenberg and the rest of the congress had listened to this old man in 2002; we would be living in a different world now.

So, when you call for people to retire from a job that's all about judgment and good sense, just because they're old....I respectfully suggest to you that you rethink your position.


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, and I'm not going to make that same mistake twice (4.00 / 1)
sweet

[ Parent ]
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