We All Fell For It

kinda hard to admit... (0.00 / 0)

....but you're probably right.

Jay_Lass on Twitter.

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by: Jay Lassiter @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 14:45:13 PM CDT

Good eye. You're right. (0.00 / 0)

Especially about the "Democrats" and others who've lost faith. I commented on a similar note this morning at TPMCafe.

Even if your intentions [for replacing Menendez] are good, you're reinforcing the Republicans' premise here: Torricelli Replacement = Menendez Replacement; Torricelli = Corrupt, Menendez = Corrupt.

Please understand, the NJ Republicans have got nothing to work with. In Tom Kean Jr. they have a candidate who mumbles like George W. Bush but without the cowboy confidence. His only saving grace is his great name, but if the voters look any closer, they will immediately see how inadequate he is.

On the other side, Bob Menendez is not the ideal candidate. He's got the know-how to handle himself in D.C. and stands head and shoulders above Kean Jr., but he doesn't have much charisma and -- like most career public servants -- there are questionable items in his past.

So they float stories of behind-the-scenes squabbling among NJ Democrats until people believe it is actually happening, and they begin to believe Menendez is corrupt like Torricelli -- which he's not!

This talk of replacing Menendez needs to stop. This race cannot should not be about him -- it needs to be about Tom Jr.

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by: JRB @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:02:29 PM CDT

Durn tootin' Juan's right! (0.00 / 0)

But keep in mind that Dubya and his cronies, including Junior, are between Iraq and a hard place--they're desperate.  What we have to do is make sure we don't fall for the game they're trying to play.

As we used to say, "Keep what's left of the faith."

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."  (Teddy Roosevelt)

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by: DottieG @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:03:31 PM CDT

ya know.... (0.00 / 0)

....i thought about it and i must say something....

My vote for Menendez was never in doubt.  Not for a second.

This vote was clearly a prop in the GOP's tightly choreographed campaign routine.  Usually, i am the idealist of the blue jersey gang and oftentimes i am so unassuming that i don't even recognize the dirty tricks when i see them.  This time was different.

It's  entirely possible that we didn't recognize all this coming because we are used this this kind of intense GOP nincompoopery.  Well, fool me twice and SHAME ON ME!

I would go on defending why I would be proud to have Sen. Menendez as my voice in Washington for another six years, but frankly I am running late to the campaign's south jersey HQ to do some phonebanking.

Jay_Lass on Twitter.

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by: Jay Lassiter @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:07:42 PM CDT

However (0.00 / 0)

I feel similar -- but when does it stop being smart political strategy and start being the evisceration of our values?

The Republicans relinquished their Social Security scheme (for now, at least), but the Democrats have given so much more.

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by: JRB @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:34:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

political strategy (4.00 / 1)

It never was a smart political strategy. Their plan is to fool us into thinking it was smart.

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by: Juan Melli @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:38:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Interesting theory (0.00 / 0)

on the Lautenberg providing coverage for Menendez.  I was to annoyed last night to even think of the political thinking behind all of this.  I agree w/ your part on Rove as well.  Sometimes politics sucks.  You would have to think that this bill would never get voted on with a Democratic Congress though, so thats why i'll continue to fight the fight. 

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by: Jason Springer @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 16:13:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm with you, BUT... (0.00 / 0)

Ok, I can see that.  Certainly Menendez was put in a position where his vote was going to hurt him in this November's campaign and he chose to upset his base rather than risk the possible flak from the right...

BUT... what about Lautenberg?  What's going through his mind?


-- Mitch
ManzellaNews.com

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by: mitch @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:37:22 PM CDT

Lautenberg (0.00 / 0)

I have no insider information, but the only thing I can figure is he wanted to provide cover for Menendez. I don't actually think he wanted to vote for this.

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by: Juan Melli @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:40:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Juan, in spite of the apparent Rovian machinations... (0.00 / 0)

This vote was about courage. Who has it, in truth, and who doesn't. The courage to stand up for the things that are good and right and true about the US, in Congress and in the public eye. The courage to truly be a representative of the people. The courage to vote in the right way, damn the torpedoes. The courage to be true statesmen, rather than calculating hacks.

Some people passed this test. Others failed, and continue to fail with every second that goes by, in which they do not come before their citizens and explain themselves.

And any Democratic Candidate that does not strongly condemn this piece of dark and malign political ledgerdermane that passed last night is failing with each passing moment as well.

Yes, I am talking to you, Paul. Right at you. Let's see your political procreative nodules.

The nom de plume has a long and distinguished history.

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by: Tandalayo Scheisskopf @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:58:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Who speaks Progressive? si vous plait (4.00 / 1)

Right, well none of us KNOW why these votes came out the way that they did.  Another comment that someone made to me by email today was that the bill would have passed even if the 2 NJ senators voted the other way.

We all kinda knew this bill was going to go through, but how many times are we going to be apologetic for our Senators?  Do we know that a Senator Kean Jr. would support torture, absolutely.

Its votes like this that drive people away from the Democratic party.  What happened to saying what you mean, and meaning what you say?  I guess not in election years.


-- Mitch
ManzellaNews.com

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by: mitch @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:59:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you asked... (0.00 / 0)

I'm not justifying their votes. Just trying to rationalize them.

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by: Juan Melli @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 16:08:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Real Party of "Cut & Run" (0.00 / 0)

I believe Republicans are the Real Party of "Cut & Run".  They do it so well too.  Ronald Reagan "cut and ran" out of Lebanon in 1983 after 241 U.S. marines were killed -- thereby sending the first message to extremists that we were easy prey in the Middle East.  And of course, Jerry Ford who "cut and run" from Vietnam -- although he should be given credit for cutting our losses in a losing situation.  Unlike the current administration run by God knows who, who has lost all site and sanity as to why we are in Iraq.  Incidently, given the latest Intelligence Estimates CONFIRMING that the Iraq war is only making matters worse AND a breeding ground for terrorism,  does Junior STILL believe he would have voted FOR the war, even in hindsight.  Oh when will will the press ask him that one?? 

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by: FlamingModerate @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 15:52:29 PM CDT

Out of the loop (0.00 / 0)

What was it we fell for again?  Apparently I should be mad about something, but I don't know what it is.

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by: DarkMagess @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 16:35:43 PM CDT

Flag Amendment (0.00 / 0)

Menendez also surprised me a while ago by voting in favor of the flag desecration amendment.  He was one of the few dems to join the dark side on that vote.  His response to my complaint was slow to arrive and pretty weak.  My guess is that he just did not want a "no" vote to become campaign fodder for the evil Rove gang.

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by: jfc521 @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 17:27:47 PM CDT

well (0.00 / 0)

He was voting for the flag amendment in the House for many years.  So it is not a response to 2006 Rove politics.

I have to think of a witty signature about Frank LoBiondo

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by: Hopeful @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 17:39:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

oops (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for that historic info.  Not to belabor the point or stray too far off-topic, but is there any good reason why a solid lib dem would consistently vote for that lame flag bill ? 

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by: jfc521 @ Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 08:18:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

disappointed, what else is new? (0.00 / 0)

I knew Bob would have to vote for this, yet, I still feel a measure of disappointment. I know Bob is the only candidate who should fill this senate seat. I have no doubts.

There is no shame for the republicans. Bush is psychotic. They all be blackmailed by Rove.

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by: ahigherpower @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 17:53:46 PM CDT

Show some moral backbone (0.00 / 0)

I put the responsibility for the Senator's vote exactly where it belongs, & if he's an honest man, exactly where he wants it:  on himself.  Show some moral backbone. Believe it or not, the right wing protestants have plenty of it. You don't think Sen. Sam Brownback is dead serious when speaks at those religious values conferences?  Who have we got? John Murtha. Russ Feingold (who ran 5 points ahead of Kerry his state). Then I start running out of names.

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by: Wesleylake @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 18:50:22 PM CDT

apologies (0.00 / 0)

to Sen. Brownback, who converted from Methodist to Catholic. But he still votes & talks like an unreconstructed Methodist.

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by: Wesleylake @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 18:54:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re (0.00 / 0)

The right-wing Protestants have guts because their supporters turn out in droves to protest their issues.  Our side has to stop wringing its hands and work the pavement.

Or maybe you think that Sam Brownback is in danger of losing his supporters.  When was the last time liberal Christians made a nationwide stand (actually, we're trying and we keep getting smacked down by our own Party).

You are entirely correct that the responsibility of a vote is with the Senator.  And it is the responsibility of the voter to build support for issues for which they care.

XT

To hell with what she wants, let's make Rosi Efthim the next DSC chair.

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by: Thurman Hart @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 19:07:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's the responsibility of the voter... (0.00 / 0)

To build support for The Constitution and Bill of Rights among our elected officials?

Oh...ok. %'0

The nom de plume has a long and distinguished history.

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by: Tandalayo Scheisskopf @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 22:14:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very sad and sick (0.00 / 0)

Im sick of our representative capitulating to the war machine that is stealing our democracy. Menendez was not going to pick up one Republican vote with his sin yesterday, I think it will backfire on him.

Shame on you Senator.

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by: mrasg1 @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 19:25:05 PM CDT

I feel like I 've been hit by a truck (0.00 / 0)

I think Bob owes us an explanation.

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by: ahigherpower @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 21:17:43 PM CDT

The reality check... (4.00 / 1)

I'm not happy that this bill passed.
That both our state's U.S. senators voted for it.
Yet I will continue to lend my enthusiastic support to the Menendez campaign.

For a very long time, I have believed that Democrats on their worst day remain miles and miles better than Republicans on their best day.

The Republican campaign spots in the redder regions of this state won't really be able to be quite as convincing on this, because neither Menendez nor Lautenberg stood with the usual liberal suspects on this bill. While the bill is horrible, with a Republican majority, it was going to pass, with or without ammendments (and, with a Republican majority, most definitely without).

It stinks. But after half a decade, I'm not exactly sure where the expectation that Democrats are going to get anything they prefer from this Republican-majority Congress is coming from. The only chance of fixing it is for Democrats to win the majority back.

I said "chance", not "guarantee"--even if the Democrats win on the 7th of November, keep in mind that this bunch that's in power in the White House have no intention of going quietly. That's the reality.

Even today, Senator Menendez truly deserves our support.

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by: laur @ Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:49:15 AM CDT

My conclusion is that it's still worth fighting to win (0.00 / 0)

I agree!  I registered my disgust with Menendez's campaign and field office in Washington, DC.  After doing some soul searching, I concluded that the alternative of allowing Junior to win just made no sense.  However, the campaign needs to realize that there has been fall out; some people are taking this vote very hard.  After all, this is hardly a trivial issue.  I realize that Menendez's vote was a "freebie" if you will - he waited until the end when it was clear that a "yes" would not matter.  Yet, the idealist in me says that it's still wrong.  But, is it bad enough that I should allow Junior to win?  Nope - Junior would have voted "YES" with a smile on his face and voted the wrong way on just about everything else.  Why does politics have to be such a dirty business?

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by: rjsnj @ Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 06:19:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yayyyyyyy (0.00 / 0)

I'm glad to see that the bottom line in this thread is coming around to the reality hat we still have to vote for/support Meendez.

BUT that still doesn't mean that he didn't make a mistake.

There will be a number, how large I don't know, of progressives who won't be able to process the political sausage/machinations/BS and be discouraged from voting at all or will reduce their level of energy/money in support of Menendez.

And for what?  To protect himself against the potential Kean ads that would have accused him of "coddling terrorists"???

I WISH Menendez had the balls to have shoved it back in their faces and made the OVERWHELMINGLY powerful case/arguments against this sick sad fascistic bill.  Such a REAL debate would have ENERGIZED the WHOLE base and discouraged Kean supporters in NJ. 

This is NEW ****ing JERSEY!!!!  People here, even most Republicans, know that Bush is a lying sack of ****!!!  NJ Republicans, for the most part, are into it for the tax advantages...most aren't "true believers" in the fanatical rabid right wing maniacal mold.  (I suspect that's true across the nation; but especially so in this state.)

A Menendez with BALLS willing to take a wee wee bit of seeming risk would have (and still can if he even now starts actually MANIFESTING how pissed off he MUST be feeling at the BS that Bush has been pulling for six effing years now and that Kean will swallow whole if elected) NO problem STILL kicking ass and winning by ten to fifteen points in November!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This does not HAVE to be a close race.

Yes, I'll still support Menendez; but I haven't "fallen" for anything!

This is both a complex...AND a simple situation.  Yes, that's politics, life, and the real world. 

;-)

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 10:48:19 AM CDT

"Reality Hat" (0.00 / 0)

Typos can be fun! And yes - in these 2006 elections, we do need to keep our Reality Hats on.

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 15:19:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am still voting for Menendez, but... (0.00 / 0)

...I won't shed a tear if he loses to Junior.  It will give Frank Pallone or Rush Holt (whomever doesn't replace Lautenberg after he hopefully retires in 2008) six years to gear up to beat Junior in 2012 so that we can finally be represented in the U.S. Senate by true progressives.

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by: taxandspendliberal @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:10:09 AM CDT

Courage means winning (0.00 / 0)

I'm not angry or disappointed about the Menendez vote -- this whole thing has caused me to take a cold hard look at the value of pragmatism.

What is "courage"?  I would say it is angering your base and suffering its moral condemnation for doing what you think you need to do in order to win an election and save our country.

I'm sick of self-righteous indignation from powerless people. 

The vote was the result of behind-the-scenes agreements and plans made by OUR team.  The Democrats voted the right way.  Moral leadership?  It is not based on individual votes like this but the actual ability to change the course of events. 

If we really want to prevent injustice, we work to take back the House and Senate. 

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by: jennypenny @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 08:53:26 AM CDT

Courage means standing up for what is right and winning with that (0.00 / 0)

Bob Menendez is light years ahead of Junior Kean on just about every issue that matters - and is even ahead of Junior when it comes to torture and granting the President dictatorial powers. But the Senator's campaign lit says "Senator Bob Menendez stands up for what's right. No matter what."

Well, this time he didn't. Should we therefore abandon him and pave the way for his opponent? No, but we should raise our voices and hold him accountable.

The idea that Dems need to cave in to the threat of Rovian fear-mongering is a proven losing strategy. Trying to find some mushy "middle ground" on such matters of principle is equally bogus. To the extent that voters are in the middle on something like this is because they're confused and can't make up their minds ... They won't be persuaded by politicians who try to win favor by becoming just like them (confused and indecisive) - they turn to leaders who are persuasive and clear about where they stand. How many times have I heard people say - well, I don't necessarily agree with Bush but at least I know where he stands and so I'll support him!

Our Senator has taken courageous stands before, notably on the Iraq War, and he deserves support for that. He'll win a lot of votes because of it. He blew the torture vote, and we should stand up to him for that, not praise him for it. If he's the Senator I think he is and I hope will continue to be for the next six years, he won't shrink from our criticism. And in his next term, he'll work diligently to undo the damage unleashed by this vote. Not because it's politically expedient, but because it's the right thing to do. But the sad thing is that doing the right thing in the first place would have helped his campaign more than it could possibly hurt. He'll never get the right-winger vote anyway. He would have kept the unwavering support of "self-righteous ... powerless" lefties. And he would have provided leadership to all those folks in the confused middle who want to follow someone who stands on solid ground, even if they don't totally agree.

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by: danpreston @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 09:06:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]