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Andrews Talks Foreign Policy, Again

by: Juan Melli

Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EDT


I've been pretty busy lately with writing and editing my thesis (anyone who wants to know more about the wild world of fish hydrodynamics and/or has chronic insomnia, drop me a line). Finally, it's almost done. But because of that I've fallen behind a bit on writing about some topics that I've really wanted to talk about. Topping that list is the Senate primary. I was hoping the campaign would be more about issues, but that was probably never realistic in a short race like this. Still, I don't think that means we should focus on the negative campaigning. We can still talk about issues, and I was hoping to do more of that.

For me the major distinguishing issue between Lautenberg and Andrews was their support for the Iraq War. I know they both supported it at the start, but Andrews' unique position as one of the few charged with rounding up Democratic support and bipartisan cover for the war is particularly bothersome. He was the last of the state's Democratic delegation to turn against the war and call for a withdrawal. Almost exactly one year ago, I noticed what seemed to be a substantive change in Andrews' foreign policy stance. He had introduced legislation to block any funds authorized for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from being used to plan an attack on Iran. It seemed to me that he had learned a lesson from the way we got into a war with Iraq. You can read about our discussion here, but one aspect of his position still surprised me:

In hindsight, despite knowing that Iraq did not possess chemical and biological weapons, Congressman Andrews still believes that Iraq was a threat to the United States. I tried to understand what he thought distinguished Iraq from the multitude of other countries with similar capabilities who we do not choose to take out by military force. The distinction seemed subtle to me, but Andrews explained that it included the combination of the ability to produce chemical and biological weapons with the fact that Saddam had been uncooperative for so long. The difference between Iran and Iraq, he said, is that we are only now in the early stages of diplomacy with Iran, whereas we were much further along with Iraq.
Fast forward almost a year, and now Andrews is a candidate to be one of the 100 people who get to decide issues of war and peace. A few weeks back, Andrews was kind enough to again discuss foreign policy position in detail. In particular, I wanted to understand under which conditions he thinks the use of pre-emptive military force is appropriate.

It seems his position has evolved significantly - even from just one year ago. There are several conditions that would need to be satisfied. First, he said that simply the capacity to manufacture weapons is not a reason to use force - there would need to be at least active conduct. He also said that there would need to be serious international support. That means there wouldn't be military action absent UN Security Council approval and a broader expression of support from the international community. Presumably, this would mean we would not use force in a situation like we had with Iraq in 2002. He would employ an exhaustive diplomatic process to try to find a more effective solution to the problem. Finally, there would need be a very high burden of proof of an imminent threat. I think this all sounds reasonable. It's difficult to identify any way that I disagree with his assessment, which surprised me a bit.

We talked about his stance in the context of Iran. He supports Iran's nuclear energy program for domestic use and noted that low-enriched uranium (LEU) is not a threat to us. Since Iran has suspended their nuclear weapons program, the use of military force fails on that condition alone. He also pointed out that there is zero international support for military action and zero evidence that they can deliver weapons to the US. For each of these reasons, he opposes the use of military force against Iran.

I asked what if Iran were producing highly-enriched uranium (HEU) instead of LEU, and he said that still wouldn't pose an imminent threat, though he would favor a gasoline embargo to try to address the issue. Asked for an example of what would constitute a threat? Synthesizing HEU and handing it off to a terrorist organization.

In the context of North Korea, he said that they have HEU but no intercontinental ballistic missiles to deliver a weapon to the US (though they may be able to produce them). Further, there is no international support for a pre-emptive military strike, and he says that diplomacy is working. On all counts, he would currently oppose the use of military force against North Korea, too.

So indulge me and let's pretend for this thread at least that the campaign is actually about issues. What do you think about Andrews' stance on the pre-emptive use of military force?

Juan Melli :: Andrews Talks Foreign Policy, Again
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they're reasonable (0.00 / 0)
I wonder, though, what actions he would take to oppose an air strike if it appeared to be imminent.  

I guess I am just feeling burned by the Democratic senators over the years.  How often have I heard from people (yes, I'm thinking of Clinton) who voted for the AUMF but say they were against the war.  Time after time, Bush got what he wanted from our Democrats, and if McCain should win, it is crucial that they have really learned the lessons from all those debacles.

I'm not saying I'm asking for Andrews or Lautenberg to fly to Tehran and make movies of kids flying kites, but I would like to see some meaningful opposition to a foolish war -- and bombing Iran is worse than foolish.

Chris Christie forced a company to endow a professorship at the law school he went to.


My question (4.00 / 2)
Generally, I agree with Andrews. He hits on all of the key elements in that he says there should be international support, a direct and imminent threat and the failure of exhaustive diplomacy. This analytical framework seems to apply neatly to situations where we are discussing the attacking of a nation in order to protect and preserve specific American interests, whether it be at home or abroad. However, it grows far murkier when we attempt to apply it to certain humanitarian crises. This may be outside of the scope of the conversation you were seeking to have, but I am curious as to what Andrews would say if, for example, the military leaders of Myanmar refuse to to allow the necessary aid in to their country, exposing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of their citizens to fatal conditions. Further, lets imagine that China strongly opposed any intervention into Myanmar (thus creating a problem with the "international support" prong of Andrews analytical framework). In such a case, would he favor taking the necessary steps to save hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives?

One other point which may also fall outside of the scope of this conversation is that I have real reservations over the fact that he essentially acted as the Democratic whip for President Bush in rounding up votes for the authorization of force. I honestly have yet to make up my mind as to who I will vote for, but this whole situation brings to mind the old saying "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." Did Andrews' foreign policy views genuinely shift between 2002 and 2008? If so, what caused this shift? (quite frankly, the excuse that the Bush administration poorly executed the war in Iraq just doesn't cut it for me) In my mind I know that we should hold all of those who foolishly voted to authorize this war equally accountable for their actions, but I am having difficulty not having greater concern about the guy who went around rounding the troops up.  


[ Parent ]
all good questions (0.00 / 0)
I didn't ask them, though we did talk about other situations which are less clear cut, such as how he would deal with terrorist organizations operating within potentially uncooperative states (Pakistan was the example). I didn't go into this in the post, but the upshot is that he would consider sending special forces into the territory instead of a full scale military invasion.

[ Parent ]
You nailed it Matt.... (0.00 / 0)
Emphasis added....

One other point which may also fall outside of the scope of this conversation is that I have real reservations over the fact that he essentially acted as the Democratic whip for President Bush in rounding up votes for the authorization of force. I honestly have yet to make up my mind as to who I will vote for, but this whole situation brings to mind the old saying "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." Did Andrews' foreign policy views genuinely shift between 2002 and 2008? If so, what caused this shift? (quite frankly, the excuse that the Bush administration poorly executed the war in Iraq just doesn't cut it for me) In my mind I know that we should hold all of those who foolishly voted to authorize this war equally accountable for their actions, but I am having difficulty not having greater concern about the guy who went around rounding the troops up.

If Andrews were running against a hard right Republican in a general election; I'd be forced to vote for him; as it is now, I see absolutely no reason to choose someone who's already "fooled me once" over a relatively decent/proven quantity like Lautenberg.


George Bush on Andrews "change of mind" re Iraq/Foreign Policy
.



[ Parent ]
Hindsight 20/20 (0.00 / 0)
Both Andrews and Lautenberg were for the war. Worth noting Lautenberg was "on the president's train." Progressives should hold politicians accountable for their records



[ Parent ]
The Differences Are Real And Relevant.... (0.00 / 0)
....all Andrews can do is to try to blur those distinctions with vague phrases like the ones you just used.

Try reading this;

http://www.bluejersey.net/show...

...then get back to me if you have any questions.

BTW I note that (from your email and signup date) you seem to be a rutgers student who just signed up on April 11th and that all your comments are strongly pro andrews and strongly anti Lautenberg.

Please consider the possibility that this isn't just about "your side" winning or losing.

Some of us actually go into some depth in considering whom to vote for.

Is Lautenberg perfect?  Hell no.   But the impression I get from Andrews supporters is that Robert Andrews is God; I hate to break it to ya...but he has feet of clay just like everyone else on Earth.

Read Juan's interview again; note how much Andrews has indeed "evolved" over the years.      Then go over his record in detail and take a close look at how he got into the race.  

I wonder how credible you would find him if you didn't have some kind of favorable prejudice towards him.....like maybe he's young and you don't like old people...or maybe he's from you're region....or maybe your family knows him personally etc etc etc?

And if you truly have no personal favorable prejudice/bias for Andrews.....please do me a favor and write a diary telling us just why you do support him.  Thanks

PS I hope to see you continuing to post so regularly after the primary!  :-)

 


[ Parent ]
hindsight (0.00 / 0)
Let's not whitewash what happened.

This is nonsense. It didn't take hindsight to know this was a mistake. Democrats in the House voted 126-81 AGAINST the resolution authorizing the use of force. They didn't have a crystal ball.

It was no secret then that there were inspectors on the ground who hadn't found anything. It was no secret that Iraq provided a critical check on Iran's power in the Middle East. It was no secret that Saddam Hussein was the only reason the country wasn't engulfed in sectarian stife. It was no secret that the Iraqi military had been decimated and posed no risk to us. It was no secret that Iraq had a strongly secular government with no ties to al Qaeda. There was evidence completely contradicting the administration's claims which many chose to ignore. So let's be honest. This isn't about hindsight at all. It's either about lack of foresight and wisdom or political expediency.


[ Parent ]
also (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for not making this thread about negative ads. /sarcasm

[ Parent ]
Superficially Reasonable.... (0.00 / 0)
......it sounds like Andrews has "come around" in many ways.

However, at this point, his word is suspect.    

Andrews has a history of pandering and of "changing his mind" when he thinks it's is advantageous to advancing his own career.

Do we really want to promote someone who has been so very wrong on the war for so long just because he's finally learned how to articulate a relatively sensible position?

As brilliant and talented as he clearly is; I don't trust him.  



By The Way Juan... (0.00 / 0)
......I think it's really great that you were able to have a one on one interview with Andrews, thank you!

I hope Lautenberg follows suite!  

I assume you recorded the interview?  If you did, would it be possible to put the audio up?  

I'm there are at least a few wonks here who would listen to the whole thing.


Re: (0.00 / 0)
It was by phone. I have no idea how to record something on the phone. But if you want to donate the equipment to do that...

[ Parent ]
Lautenberg (0.00 / 0)
I agree, this is great stuff, Juan.  Have you reached out to Lautenberg's office to try and get this kind of detailed policy from him?  It would be great to hear his side (so far all we've heard are campaign talking points).

[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 1)
I haven't reached out to Lautenberg. Don't really feel like I have the time. I also didn't reach out to Andrews. He was proactive, reached out to me, and offered to talk.

[ Parent ]
if lautenberg reaches out to Blue Jersery.... (4.00 / 1)
...i will come reprise my roll in Trenton for a whole week in Obama Girl drag.



my governor supports equality.  


[ Parent ]
The 2003 NIE (0.00 / 0)
The next time Blue Jersey speaks with Congressman Andrews, I would be interested to know if he read the 2003 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq?  According to the Washington Post, only a handful of Senators and Representatives actually took the time to access the classified document and read it for themselves.

Congressman Andrews' decision to co-author the Iraq War resolutions was a failure of leadership, but was his ignorance of the NIE a failure of responsibility?


I have serious questions about pre-emptive force (0.00 / 0)
1) In the movie The Fog of War, an audio tape excerpt is played where Sec. of Defense McNamara is talking with President Kennedy about the possibility of using nuclear weapons to get Soviet missiles out of Cuba (I'll pause and let that chill run all the way up your spine).  They ultimately decide against it, because, as McNamara advises Kennedy, "If we take the genie out of the bottle here, I don't see how we keep it in the next time one of these little dustups happens." (not exact quotation)

That applies to the case of Iraq.  Let's say that there were good reasons to go into Iraq.  How do we jam that genie back into the bottle now?  Do we simply move on to the next greatest threat or is there some objective (or even subjective) measure that we can use as a yardstick?

2) For over a hundred years, Iraq has served to balance the power struggle between the Arabian peninsula and the Persion nation.  The Iraq-Iran war served, if nothing else, as proof that a strong Iraq could serve this function, even if the government was unfriendly to our interests.  Additionally, Iraq served as a buffer to keep Gulf tensions from spreading to Turkey.  Since we've already seen Turkish military incursions into Iraq and we know that some Iranians are actively supporting militias in Iraq - how do we restore this balance of power and prevent World War III?

3) How can we support pre-emptive action with a military that is, in the words of Colin Powell, "broken"?  If we are ever going to use pre-emptive force, wouldn't it be better advised to: a) build a conventional force large enough to handle the job without relying on the National Guard to the point that it decimates the states' ability to provide emergency first response services; and b) actually build a tax base that would pay for it without breaking the backs of our children and grandchildren (FDR had income tax rates that reached over 90% - a sure indication that America was with him)?

Will commit political science for food.


Some distinctions... (0.00 / 0)
In general, there are some distinctions that made Iraq a semi-unique case.
Iraq has a history of aggressive behaviour under Saddams's leadship, (Kuwait). In addition to Iran not invading a sovereign state in recent years, it seems they have 'elections' of sorts and leadership changes from time to time.
Diplomacy may well work with N. Korea because they have limited resources (they depend on food and oil imports). This is huge, Iraq, as an oil exporter, has/had an engine for aquiring whatever technology was desired, greatly expanding Saddam's capabilities (see oil for food scandals and important contraband).
I'm not saying Andrew's vote was justified or not, but I am saying that the logic for invading Iraq is not easily carried over to Iran or N. Korea.
 

-When Chuck Norris plays Monopoly, the real world economy is affected.

OK Frank Launtenberg, Now's The Time... (0.00 / 0)
.....give Juan a call, have you're folks record the audio; and put it here up for all to hear!

Sadly, I think Jay is right.  Lautenberg is too risk averse.  

One of the best thing I can say about Rob Andrews is that he has some great people on his side.

I hadn't seen this video for months, it's so sexy, smart and politically cutting!

The Obama Women must do this again, only with McCain as the villain in the piece.  He richly deserves this kind of treatment.

Talk about "rockin the vote"!!!  ;-)


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