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What happened in the Fifth?

by: Blue Jersey

Tue Nov 11, 2008 at 02:43:46 PM EST



With one of us being a resident of the fifth district and having to be represented by the odious Scott Garrett, we had hopes that this may be the year that he would be sent home for good.  However, even with polls indicating that the race was closing and closing fast over the last few weeks, as well as a pretty unfavorable view of the incumbent Garrett, major endorsements for challenger Dennis Shulman (a candidate with one of the best backgrounds, personalities and personal stories of this entire cycle) and events with prominent and popular Democratic Congressmen and Senators, three debates where Garrett looked the damn fool and a final week influx of $85,000 by the DCCC, the final results ended up being closer to 2004 than continuing to close the gap that 2006 challenger Paul Aronsohn was able to cut to near single digits.

And with this, we started to wonder how a race that, by many accounts, was potentially a tossup, ended up a 14% rout.

While trying to analyze the results, the campaigns that both Shulman and Garrett ran - including the late-in-the-game influx of disgraceful ads paid for by the NRCC and the results of past races, we came up with more questions than answers. The biggest and first question is whether this district is even remotely winnable by a Democrat.  We say this not as fatalists, but as people who have realized the value that building up a sustainable infrastructure can bring, as people who know how very different each county is within the district and as people who can sense some very basic flaws in what little infrastructure has been built up in the district.  On a more fundamental level, we wonder if the Fifth has earned the respect to receive an earlier endorsement as a "Red to Blue" district or earlier financial support from the DCCC - both of which could have certainly helped, but the distinction and funds may have also been better served in more winnable races earlier in the cycle.

Before looking at the vote breakdown, and trying to see where things could have changed in this cycle, it is fairly evident that the district will be extremely tough to win in one cycle - especially if we don't start to build up critical infrastructure now.  In Bergen County, the BCDO is a mess, to say the least, with Ferriero in, shall we say, "hot water," and no indication as to if or when he will step down from his Chairmanship.  With this matter still in limbo, it would be very difficult for a Democrat to run on a "clean government" platform and be taken seriously enough to flip a 53/47 deficit to a 52/48 win in the county.  It isn't an accident that there was such a disappointment that even the top Democratic Freeholders saw a near 20% dropoff in her votes from Obama, as noted today in the Bergen Record.

Blue Jersey :: What happened in the Fifth?
Another thing to note is how some of the more politically active grassroots have acted in the district.  In the last 2 cycles, Camille Abate ran and lost badly in the primary.  In 2006, she and her supporters were bordering on hostile towards the Aronsohn campaign and the lack of a unified grassroots effort no doubt cost Aronsohn some votes (although not likely enough, even in an off cycle where less votes could have a bigger impact).  In 2008, Abate's supporters acted more in the role of "purity trolls" - willing to sacrifice the seat to an extremist like Garrett at the expense of a Democrat who was not ideological enough for them.  After the primary, many of Abate's supporters were nowhere to be found - except when leaving snide comments in blog posts about Shulman.  This is the height of counterproductivity.  If all 5th district Democrats can't agree to support the party nominee against someone like Garrett, then one wonders if those supporters are really Democratic supporters and progressives, or if they are more of a hindrance to the bigger picture and creation of true progressive infrastructure in the district.

It is also important to chip away at the very large margins that Garrett maintained in the other 3 counties - mainly Sussex and Warren - where Garrett is able to hide behind a false claim of independence and spending restraint in order to fool the residents from seeing his right wing voting record for what it is and recognizing the hypocrisy of his $40,000+ "shrub farm" tax credit.  A continuous effort in these outer counties may not come close to flipping the vote to a more even split, but a 20,000 vote disadvantage in Sussex and Warren must be narrowed.  This cannot be done without people on the ground calling attention to Garrett's votes and actions, as well as some level of overall organization of local progressives and grassroots activists.

Now, onto the voting patterns that show just how tough this district currently is for a Democrat to win.  From 2004 - 2008, if you look at the vote breakdown by county, you will see a pretty similar pattern.  Whether it is 2004 (when close to 10,000 more voters came out than this year), 2006 (when turnout was down 33% in a non-Presidential year) or 2008, or if there are 2 candidates like 2008, 3 candidates like 2006 or 5 candidates like 2004, the results by county are very close.

In fact, in each of the three elections, Garrett pulled down 61% of the vote in Warren County, was never below 64% in Sussex County, was between 56.9% and 58.1% in Passaic County and got 53.9%, 51.4% and 53.3% in Bergen County.

This makes us look at two things - how Garrett has been able to stay below the radar when even his own party officials think he is a nut, and what a Democrat must do to win against Garrett (and by extension, what Dennis possibly could have done differently to maximize the chance to beat him).

The first is easier than the second, since Shulman ran a pretty damn good campaign.  He was a "netroots darling" and got plenty of exposure from the netroots community.  He came onto the campaign scene with a splash - raising a lot of money early on and raising more than any of Garrett's prior challengers.  He obtained high level endorsements, he beat a well-known (but possibly not quite very popular in the District) primary opponent.  He had Garrett on the run - even getting three debates where he was both on the attack and explaining his positions.  And he had some Garrett scandals that the campaign uncovered and publicized.  The only big fault we can potentially find is that the ground game may not have been as strong as it needed to be, but that is at least just as much of a testament to the bigger issues noted above that the Shulman campaign had little control over.

There are two things that must be done in a district such as this, where any Democrat has a roughly 30,000 vote disadvantage outside of Bergen County in a Presidential election year, and close to a 20,000 disadvantage in an off-cycle year.  Garrett must be defined early as an extremist with an extremist with an abysmal voting record.  And a successful Democratic campaign must hit back hard against Garrett's vicious but obviously effective ads.

For a race that was supposed to be close, the final weeks saw the airwaves and mailboxes blanketed with "Dennis Shulman is an extremist who will negotiate with terrorists" and "Shulman hates the troops".  And while this is patently ridiculous, we fear that the choice to not hit back with something along the lines of the following was akin to Kerry not immediately hitting hard and fast against the Swift Boaters:

"Scott Garrett wants to accuse a rabbi of coddling terrorists and not supporting the troops, yet even his own party calls him a "nut".  He only engages in these lies and smears because he is running from his votes against the GI Bill, the Voting Rights Act, children's healthcare for lower income families and shockingly against a ban on the viciously cruel so-called 'sport' of dogfighting.  Garrett is too extreme for this district.  He is too extreme even for the most right wing of republicans."

Now, we have heard Shulman give his stump speech.  He mentions all of the above - frequently.  But this is a low information district with an inherent Republican advantage, where a large majority of people never hear a stump speech or listen to debates.  And that is especially true in the rural areas that count for roughly one-third of the votes.  So it's clear that very heavy handed, yet accurate, tactics must be used - and used consistently in a way that will not only reach these voters, but close the gap in Sussex and Warren Counties by 1/3 to 1/2 of the roughly 25,000 deficits of 2008 and 2004.  Here is where Garrett's votes against healthcare for children in lower income families, against middle class tax cuts and his own stimulus package proposal that consisted solely of corporate tax cuts, his votes against the GI Bill and other votes that would surely piss off residents, were they aware of them.

The message about Garrett's voting record is one that could potentially accomplish the other piece of the puzzle - flipping Bergen from a 53/47 deficit to a 53/47 win.  Here is where some of Garrett's economic votes may not resonate as much as some of the others.  However, there certainly is a large number of Bergen residents that don't know nearly enough about the scumbag that is representing them in Washington - certainly not how Garrett is viewed as a nut by the extremists in his own party.

So this brings us back to the first question - how does he stay below the radar?  Well, to counter that, a sustained campaign that starts (or rather continues) now to define Garrett as the nut that his own party already know him to be is imperative.  Letters to the editor, publicizing his votes and positions and making sure that people of this district know just what is being done in their names are just a few examples of what needs to be done over the next two years.

This is, obviously, the hard part.  Without money, it is tough to do much other than shine a light on his activities and votes via editorials, LTEs and blogging.  However, if Dennis is considering another run in 2010, surely there is some thought of laying the foundation to keep hitting Garrett throughout the next couple of years.  If there is anyone else that may be considering a run, we would suggest that the run start sooner than later with its negative branding of Garrett as a nut and a sustained campaign that highlights each and every one of his actions.

The fifth is a very tough district for a Democrat to win.  And while it may be winnable by 2012 (pending a redistricting, of course), Shulman's campaign made us think that this could have been the year.  Taking away what we did from this race, in order to unseat Garrett here, a campaign - even one that looks like it is doing many things right - can't be a one-year, or even one-cycle campaign.  It must start with the tearing down of Garrett in the way that he deserves to be torn down.

And it must start now for anyone to have a strong shot in 2010.

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I'd like to see a parallel effort... (4.00 / 4)
...to recruit a moderate Republican, preferably a woman, to mount a primary challenge against Garrett in 2010 and every subsequent election cycle. Think of it as Marge Roukema's revenge. Now, should this challenger actually win, it would make the district even less winnable for a Democrat. Nevertheless, I don't think Scott Garrett deserves to coast his way into the nomination every election cycle. He should be challenged every single time.  

Brilliant! (0.00 / 0)
Though it would likely mean no Democrat could then win.   A Roukema Republican would be an improvement.

[ Parent ]
One more chance (4.00 / 2)
There'll only be one more race in the district as it's now drawn. Who knows what the 2010s gerrymandering will bring, but perhaps every Democratic area of both the 5th and the 11th can be extracted into one district while Garrett and Felinghuysen can fight a primary in the other (or face a difficult fight in the D-leaning district).

very true (4.00 / 3)
and that is the kicker - infrastructure in Bergen is still key, and even if the western parts of the district are merged elsewhere, they shouldn't be written off.

The question is where to start and what to do, all while keeping in mind that things could be very different in a couple of years.


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Non affiliated voters are the KEY (0.00 / 0)
IIRC, More Independants than R's & more R's  than D's.

In June 2010 start knocking those doors.

But before that, in 2008 look at your vacant committee seats, fill them. DO it now. In 2009 the Statehouse & municipal races are key. Start petitions for ballot initiatives about key local issues. This means recruiting volunteers to get signatures, using lists from 2008, getting those same vols out for early 2009, and keeping them involved thru 2010.

If you get e few dems elected to council in Warren & Sussex, you can end up rebranding the local dems. ANd inoculating the dem who runs in the 5th. The 2009 races are te set up for the 2010 midterms. And the Corzine brand is a bad brand at this time.  

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.


[ Parent ]
County Committee (4.00 / 1)
I am trying to get on the Passaic County Democratic County Committee, how do I go about this?  

[ Parent ]
Get the list of county committee members (4.00 / 1)
from your municipal clerk.  See if there is a vacancy in your election district (precinct).  I know Wanaque is rather small but it is also rather Republican so there may not be much of an organization there currently.

Then, either (a) if there is a vacancy then contact the municipal chair or the county chair if there isn't anybody on the municipal committee currently.  Or, (b) if your seat is currently filled, contact that person and offer to help.  Either you build a good relationship or the person may not want to run against you in two years if they really aren't doing anything.


[ Parent ]
If the seat is vacant ... (4.00 / 1)
the Chair may elect to put you in that position before the time you would have to run for that seat on the ballot in your voting precinct. A letter to the County Clerk, I believe, allows the Chair to fill an empty county committee position with a willing person.

[ Parent ]
.... (4.00 / 6)
I have spoken to my Municipal Chair, the seat is vacant, and the wheels are in motion for me to fill it.  

[ Parent ]
OUTSTANDING! (0.00 / 0)
Best comment of the day.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

[ Parent ]
no (0.00 / 0)
actually, all that is needed is a vote of the current municipal committee to fill the vacancy.

[ Parent ]
Sometimes there isn't one :-( n/t (0.00 / 0)


It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

[ Parent ]
Then, it is the full county committee that has to vote. (0.00 / 0)
But, then, as the one municipal committeeperson in that area, you would get to fill all the other seats based on a meeting held with yourself.  :-)

[ Parent ]
Is that universal? (0.00 / 0)
I may be out of date or otherwise wrong, but I think that depends on the County Committee's and Municipal Committee's by-laws.

[ Parent ]
which part are you referring to? (0.00 / 0)
Title 19 says that it is either the remaining members of the municipal committee or the county committee as a whole if there aren't any members of that municipal committee.  After the Eu decision, of course, the county committees have the right to establish some other procedure.  But, I haven't heard of any doing that.

[ Parent ]
Email me Matt (4.00 / 1)
I'm a Passaic County Dem Committeeman, and I'm happy to help:

jeff@njfordemocracy.org


[ Parent ]
Also.. (0.00 / 0)
races around the country have shown that: a. hard fought primaries bring media attention and generally give the candidate that wins a bounce (see Kay Hagan in NC) and b. we need to recruit candidates that have a strong base of support (preferably in Bergen County) already in place so we aren't starting from scratch.  At the top of this list should be County Executive Dennis McNerney, who is from an R-leaning town of Ho-Ho-Kus or Mayor Matthew McHale, in my opinion an up and comer in New Jersey politics who has a strong base in Dumont.    

aftermath and future (3.50 / 2)
Obviously, the Fifth is a very Republican district:  it was designed that way.

If we are going to win in 2010, then work needs to be done on the Democratic infrastructure in the district.  Besides McHale, how many Democratic mayors are in the district, for example?  Are there any Democratic county or state officeholders in the district?  The answers to these questions simply illustrate the need for party-building.

Also, there is a need for an ongoing campaign.  If Garrett is truly guilty of tax fraud, then we should be going after him.


stand corrected (3.50 / 2)
In addition to McNerney, Freeholders Padilla, Carroll and O'Brien live in the Fifth.  I realize current Bergen Democratic freeholders may not be preferred candidates from a pure reformist perspective, but they would be much, much better than Garrett.

[ Parent ]
I'm considering a run in the 5th. (4.00 / 2)
I'm currently at GW Law School, have a Masters in Intl Relations and Political Science from NYU and have worked as a volunteer on the Dean and Kerry campaigns among others. I'd probably have a decent fundraising base of 50-60k before I even had to start calling randomly, and have a solid amount of connections in the party both here in DC and in my district. I'm from Ringwood, and would be capable of starting a run full-time come August/September of 09.

I wrote my Masters thesis on EU-US military affairs, have worked on issues ranging from the US Marshals General Counsel Office to Environmental Whistleblower Protection, eminent domain and medical insurance lawsuits.  I spent time abroad studying the European Union, have a Bachelors in Poli Sci and Philosophy from Case Western in Cleveland, and I have a strong family base in the area. I am a strong Democrat who would not give up without a fight.  This district deserves better than Scott Garrett.

The problems are that I have been a student for my entire life, never having had to live in the district on a paycheck. I am quite knowledgeable and educated on the issues of the day, but the attacks would go to this lack of experience.  Competence and experience are not always mutually inclusive, and that is evidenced my Scott Garrett's record.

Thoughts?


I'm from Wanaque (4.00 / 1)
and would help.  

[ Parent ]
you would do better (4.00 / 2)
to work (and maybe run) in Ringwood first.  The local party could certainly use the help.

[ Parent ]
At a minimum Steve (4.00 / 4)
You should work to get on to the Passaic County Committee, as Matt is planning to do. Ringwood (and Wanaque) could both use active democrats ready to strengthen the party.

[ Parent ]
Stick to Current Votes (4.00 / 2)
There are going to be a lot of votes in the new term to point to.  Garrett's going to honestly say he doesn't think the government should be doing what's being proposed.  Whoever you put up will have to be able to honestly make the case why they disagree.

For example, in this recession, how many campaign pieces from Shulman's camp highlighted the fact Garrett voted against small business tax cuts and loan programs?  I'm assuming Shulman would have voted for those job creating programs, but I never saw a mailer saying that.

Garrett has his base, but the fact Obama beat Shulman in Warren County (I can't look for the rest right now) may point to room for improvement.  

To stand a real chance, a candidate is going to need to move past the "Garrett's crazy" attacks of the last four campaigns.


if anyone's thinking of running (4.00 / 2)
i worked on the last campaign to unseat garrett and know of 100 people at least who will volunteer from bergen county, and that's only the eastern part in the 5th district. they are dying to get elect anyone but garrett. this race can be won.  

we should talk.... (4.00 / 2)
I want to do something like what was done in the 7th (maybe a PAC, some sort of online organizing that can help people volunteer to motivate others, etc.).

We can hopefully get people to be involved while they are still motivated and keep that going in a number of ways/areas, etc.


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
good idea (4.00 / 1)
can i e-mail you or do you want my e-mail? i think there are a lot of things we can be doing right now potentially.

[ Parent ]
This is great to see n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I want in on this action.... (0.00 / 0)
matthewpjordan@gmail.com  

[ Parent ]
send me one (0.00 / 0)
my email is in my profile.

looking forward to hearing from you--

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
BLue Jersey, did you see that republican lit in the 5th (0.00 / 0)
tying Corzine to the democratic brand.

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.

I didn't see this... (0.00 / 0)
does anyone have a copy?  What did it say?

[ Parent ]
Great Analysis (4.00 / 5)
Great analysis, Blue Jersey team.  Thanks for taking the time and care to draft such a thoughtful, informed diary.

We must not give up hope.

Paul


mostly great (3.50 / 4)
....except for the part where Camille Abate gets stuck with more of the blame than the candidate himself.

Two people were responsible for the outcome of this race:  Dennis Shulmann and Scott Garrett. Or am i missing something?

activist for hire.Follow jay_lass on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Hey Jay (2.50 / 2)
Lots of people are responsible for the outcome of any race, as I'm sure you know, being a campaign staffer and all.  

[ Parent ]
TJ (0.00 / 0)
shoot me an email when you get a chance.  Address is in my profile.

thx--


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for inserting some sanity here Jay... (4.00 / 1)
...It's hard to believe that people who write about "snide comments in blog posts" having any impact on this election think they should be taken seriously.  Oops, I hope this post doesn't cost an election :)

[ Parent ]
Sanity From Jay!!! (0.00 / 0)
So nice, let's say it twice!

mostly great  (4.00 / 3)
....except for the part where Camille Abate gets stuck with more of the blame than the candidate himself.

Two people were responsible for the outcome of this race:  Dennis Shulmann and Scott Garrett. Or am i missing something?



[ Parent ]
Thre first part of that is fine. (0.00 / 0)
It seems doubtful to me that Abate had much impact on the race.

But the second paragraph is dumb, and Jay knows better. For one thing, the voters are also responsible. And there are many who hold more responsibility than random Garrett voters do.


[ Parent ]
Shulman And Garrett Were The Two Candidates... (0.00 / 0)
What they did, said and their records determined what the voters' impressions of them were.

In the case of Garrett, I would argue that he managed to keep his hidden agendas well hidden.   As I've said elsewhere, Shulman failed to "flush out" Garrett on his more extremist fundamentalistic views/aims.  

(And I have to give Garrett (and let's not forget Stever Rothman!) credit for being against the "bailout" as it was structured......no doubt that got him a bunch of votes.  The last month has borne out the concerns those who voted against this unprecedented corporate welfare/boondoggle.)

Of course, ultimately, the voters always bear the final responsibility in the abstract sense that it's their choice; but in practical terms, it's the candidates and the campaigns that determine the bases upon which the voters make those choices; therefor Jay is (at the very least, arguably ;-) correct, and far from "dumb".


[ Parent ]
and how did you help with Dennis' campaign (4.00 / 1)
after the primary?

Just wondering....

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
my thoughts were with dennis... (0.00 / 0)
...as i spent the rest of the cycle on the beaches of florida.  i'm just a hired hand and had his campaign reached out to me i may have stayed but i was drafted by the florida dem party instead...but i'm sure if i had stayed in jersey dennis' loss may have been by a few fewer votes :)

[ Parent ]
and those who were part of (0.00 / 0)
your team, in Bergen, in Sussex, in Warren - where were they after the primary?

The endorsements, the foot soldiers, the phone calls, the emails of support?

It's interesting how there was more of excuses and defensive finger pointing than activism for the Democratic nominee after the primary.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
anyone who would believe? (1.00 / 1)
...that a few abate vols could have closed a 15 point gap isn't living in reality...maybe it's time to lay off the series of tubes and join the real world...enjoy :)

[ Parent ]
you just don't get it (0.00 / 0)
anyone who would think that taking your ball and going home after trashing the candidate who won in the primary (2 elections in a row) is something that can be explained away with childish "it wouldn't have mattered anyway" excuses is clearly not in it for the bigger picture.

Nice insults and projection as well - I guess your Facebook exchanges on election night shows how much you all were pulling for Dennis.

but why let the truth get in the way of your selfish denial?


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
We need infrastructure... (4.00 / 1)
Seems like we could do a few things to start the campaign for 2010:

-Coordinate a blog for the district (in the mold of the DumpMike blog in the 7th)
-Start raising money via Act Blue in small dollars for the eventual nominee
-Organize all the people on this site from the district and surrounding area who can organize the field operation


great ideas (4.00 / 1)
This is something that I have been thinking about, but didn't know the district well enough last cycle to know where to start.

A PAC, a site that expands on the "Retire Garrett" site (maybe "GarrettsGottaGo.com"), online recruiting and organizing via Facebook, etc. in order to build a parallel infrastructure.

We need to see how we can get people from Sussex and Warren to raise Garrett's profile to where it should be....

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Coordinate a blog for the district, you say? (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
I was thinking.... (0.00 / 0)
something that is a little more partisan.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks... (4.00 / 2)
For the mention.  Partisan I'm not, but I know for a fact both campaigns used my stuff this year.  That's what it's there for, as a resource.

[ Parent ]
Your joking right? (1.00 / 1)
Ok I have intentionally gone out of my way not to get involved with talk of my mom on this websites so i would not sound biased.  But this is a tipping point here.
You are really gonna tell me that my mother(Camille  Abate for anyone who doesn't know) was one of the reasons Shulman lost? give me a break.  The majority of what you said about her and her campaign in there is utterly and completely untrue. First of all "Purity Troll who would sacrifice the seat to an extremist" is a blatant lie.  You can talk to anyone who was involved in her camaign that lives in district and they would all tell you they voted for Dennis.
Secondly, many of her donors donated to him after the primary(check the FEC report if you don't believe me).
Thirdly my mother and my family ALL voted for Dennis and wanted him to win as much as anybody, you try and portray her as someone who cares nothing for the party and only for herself which is again untrue.  You act like shes the first person to ever run an agressive primary campaign, how else are you to beat the unbeatable BCDO line?  
Any REAL Democrat regardless of who they supported voted for Shulman including my mother.  You think primaries really kill candidates??? I'm pretty sure Leonard Lance was in an all out blood bath for a primary and still managed to beat a heavily favored Linda Stender.
So please if you have ANYTHING fact based as to how she might have cost him then say it, but if your just going to sit here and continue slander her and her supporters about something that you really don't know about, then thats just low class.
Besides she gained more points against Aronsohn in the primary than she did against Shulman and he lost by less to Garrett, so how you can figure she cost him anything is beyond me

um..... (4.00 / 1)
taking the part that you are obviously not objective here out of the mix....tell me this:

Did we not mention the mess that BCDO is in and the problems it caused above the fold?

Where did we blame her?  We are talking about her supporters and while we are on that topic - answer me this:

How many of her supporters and organizers helped out in any meaningful way after the primary?  How many canvassed or were field organizers?  How many emails did the campaign send out to their supporters urging them to get involved with Dennis' campaign after the primary was over (hint:  the answer is none, since I am on her email distribution list)?

Voting for Dennis is the bare minimum.  Donating money is one step above minimum.  Getting out, organizing and convincing others to vote for the Democratic nominee is what is needed.

You, of all people, should know what good organizing does and how tough this district is when people keep their mouths shut and "just vote".

Is that enough for you?

Sheesh....

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
No commentary, I promise (4.00 / 3)
But it's worth noting that Leonard Lance's main primary opponent, in a very classy move, became the chair of his finance committee for the general election.

[ Parent ]
No Understanding (3.33 / 3)
Clearly no one here has any understanding of the Fifth.

NO ONE can become the Democratic nominee without winning the primary.  You can't win the primary unless you have the certification out of the laughable BCDO convention, but the BCDO does not now nor has it ever cared about winning the Fifth so the nomination always goes to someone unthreatening to the Chairman and devoid of a true political personna.  That means someone who can't win against Garrett.  

Add to this that right now the endorsement of the BCDO itself is probably the kiss of death.  In order to be an individual of principle a candidate has to be opposed to the BCDO and its tactics......but that person can't get through the Kangaroo Court of the Bergen convention.

This article as much as blames Camille Abate for Shulman's loss.  That's just chickens**t excuse making.  How about laying the guilt where it should rightfully sit: on the BCDO and the unprincipled toadies who support its smarmy tactics.  Jesus.....a candidate would have a better chance of winning the Fifth by running AGAINST the BCDO than by running against Garrett.  The BCDO poisoned the water for a lot of down ticket candidates this year with their shenanigans.  Obama Independents hopped back over to the Republican line before they got to Freeholder.  

Dennis Shulman's appraisal that his "Story" would win him the seat didn't work.  I'm not sure what it takes to win the Fifth, but it takes more than a "Story".

So many people argue that Garrett doesn't represent the district.  He is a better representative of the voters in the Fifth than the BCDO is a representative of the Democrats in the Bergen County Fifth.  The writer of this article recommends that Shulman should have countered Garrett's four and five-word slurs with a snappy 82-word "come back".  How about this: "Scott Garret is a liar and a tax cheat."  It's crisp, it has bite and...oh yeah....it's true!

One responder goes as far as to suggest that appropriate pretenders for this seat would be Ferriero familiars Dennis McNerney and Matt McHale.  Nothing could make less sense.  Anyone going into battle under the banner of the BCDO here is guaranteed to lose.  McNerney is an excellent County Executive.  He should stay where he can continue to do good for the residents of this county.  

25 years ago both parties met and divided this state up into what was supposed to be all unlosable districts.  That's pretty much how things stand now, particularly in the Fifth.  Whoever suggested that we all may have to wait until redistricting for things to change might be right.  Either way, the BCDO is the problem.

Come on, Guys.....let's get a clue.


Some Of Us Have Been Saying For Years.... (0.00 / 0)
....that the corrupt BCDO won't ever seriously support a Democratic candidate in the 5th for the simple reason that the Ferierro crowd doesn't believe it's winnable.  

If they thought it was winnable, they would have appointed one of "their own" to the position of nominee (i.e. by giving that person the coveted "party line" in the primary).  Arcangelll is pretty much absolutely correct on those points.

From my perspective, they gave that party line to people whom they though would have the least chance of winning (at least the last two times).   The last thing the Ferierro BCDO wanted was a wildfire candidacy take off and put a powerful progressive in Congress that wouldn't be owing them anything.

I believe that Abate had the fire and the fierceness required to dismantle the Garrett facade while simultaneously putting up a positive and detailed policy agenda.

Contrary to what a number of people here have come to believe, Camille is actually a very lovely decent human being who is quite well liked by people/voters who meet her for the first time.   I know that from first hand experience because I canvassed with her for a few hours and saw her interact with scores of people there and in other public settings.

On the other hand the same qualities of fire and fierceness that would make Abate a great/effective "vampire-slayer" in a fight with Garrett also offend the sensibilities of people who are pained to see someone as nice as Paul being criticized or as sweet and lovable as Dennis being criticized.  

It is not my purpose here to re-argue the last primary; that would be a waste of time at this point....however, I would like to say that if there is another primary competition for this nomination next time out,  that there should be zero attacks on anyone from anyone.   (That is what I proposed two years ago and I believe it to this day.)

The only criteria that should be displayed/considered are the skills/talents/ideas/qualities that would best demolish Garrett.  

That should be the sole basis/criteria for who the voters pick and who wins the primary....and anyone who attacks another democrat should be the loser.   I would love to see any and all candidates take a pledge to that effect.

I would like to see the campaign be primarily a series of debates (maybe 10, tops) during which the candidates would simply have a moderated discussion over the full spectrum of issues/questions.  

That way, if there is a contested primary, all the debates/discussion/ads/coverage will be about what a piece of shit Garrett is and about how he's such a piece of shit that people are competing for the job of being able to demonstrate their ability for exposing Garrett and for showing us "what they got" in the way of a positive policy agenda.

Who ever emerged victorious in THAT kind of primary really WOULD be the person best suited to defeat Garrett.

Now, the OTHER half of the story is that the BCDO needs to be reformed or it won't matter WHO the candidate is.  Again, Arcangelll is right.

If the BCDO continues to be seen as an instrument of corruption; then whoever it "nominates" to the "party line" will be seen/portrayed as tainted by association.

If we can have a high quality positive primary and a BCDO which is cleaned up and willing to spend time and money making sure that EVERY single potential 5th District Democratic voter in BC registered and activated/motivated to vote!

Then we stand a chance of winning even this gerrymandered district.   (Assuming Obama and the Democratic Congress have been positively kicking ass for two years).

It would be a mistake not to go all out in 2010 hoping that new district lines will "do the job".

Ideally, the prospective candidates would sort themselves out asap and there wouldn't even have to be a primary....but if that's not possible then the above model should be utilized.


[ Parent ]
re: BCDO (4.00 / 1)
you are correct there - I also think that they pressured Dennis to back Ferriero after the shit hit the fan and created a very uncomfortable situation, to say the least.

How could Dennis support Ferriero and then run against Garrett's being corrupt?  I don't know the answer there, but I thought that we were pretty clear in the BCDO's role in this race....maybe some readers didn't think we were clear enough....

Lastly, I think your last 2 lines are spot on - we can't wait and hope that the district gets lucky in 2 years.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
um.... (0.00 / 0)
Did you read the paragraph above the fold that blames the BCDO and talks about "clean government"?  How much more did you want us to say in a 1400 word post?

Or did you just see Camille's name and jump to conclusions that she was somehow a large part of the blame?

But as I say right above, if you want to talk about her campaign, tell me how her SUPPORTERS helped in any meaningful way after the primary, or how her campaign pushed her supporters to get involved in unseating Garrett?


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Do your job (0.00 / 0)
clammyc,

you have the same answer to everything.  When you're challanged you whine that whoever is on the other side from you should "...tell me how her SUPPORTERS helped in any meaningful way after the primary" and earlier in response to Erik's post you said, "...How many of her supporters and organizers helped out in any meaningful way after the primary?  How many canvassed or were field organizers?"  

If you want to try to make the point that we did nothing at all to aide the Shulman campaign, you should first verify that what you're saying is true.  If you don't feel compelled by the fact that this is the most rudimentary element of reporting, then maybe you could just do it because it might prevent you from being absolutely wrong....which you are in this case.

I worked on both of Ms. Abate's campaigns, but I also distributed Shulman literature during my own campaign.  His people said that they would distribute mine as well, but guess what?  They never did.  What they did do was to drive around in my town and knock on the door of anyone who had one of my signs or who had an Obama sign and ask if they would take a Shulman sign too.  Most said "No".

When I went up to Shulman's HQ to pick up his literature I ran right into another of our campaign staff working there as well.  Others on our staff were making phone calls and canvassing.

It's fine to jot down whatever's closest to the top of your mind on an issue and pass it off as Journalism, just don't get so defensive when the points you're trying to make, and won't go to the trouble of making even a single phone call to verify, don't turn out to be true.


[ Parent ]
I did verify, thank you (0.00 / 0)
and I was told by someone that definitely knows what happened in terms of Dennis' campaign reaching out to Camille, her campaign and her supporters.

I know what was done by Dennis' team and know what they told me was done in a tangible way.

Nice try, and your testiness is oh-so-becoming.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
So.... (0.00 / 0)
Anyone who worked within the BCDO to get elected as a Democrat in Bergen County is disqualified to run?

Nonsense.  McHale is a Mayor of a large town in the district, has a strong political base, is young, and could raise money, just because he worked within the county party shouldn't disqualify him as a viable candidate.  

I have no horse in the Abate/Shulman debate and personally think a candidate who hasn't held elected office prior to running is at a distinct disadvantage.

Furthermore, this in-fighting and finger pointing is counterproductive.  We should all be focused on beating Garrett.  


[ Parent ]
Hi there (0.00 / 0)
Rest assured, no one who worked on the Fifth District campaign, least of all Dennis Shulman, made any "appraisal that his 'Story' would win him the seat."

To suggest otherwise demonstrates a significant lack of understanding about the race.  

Further, if you think our campaign didn't call Garrett a corrupt tax cheat every chance we got, then you weren't paying attention.  


[ Parent ]
and by the way (0.00 / 0)
that "82 word comeback" was an ad, brainiac.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.

[ Parent ]
You miss my point.... (0.00 / 0)
First of all Clammy what part of what I wrote isn't objective.  I didn't give my opinion on what happened, I told it as fact.  Your right most of her supporters didn't continue on the campaign trail and campaigned for Denni, but they all voted for them.  What you are basically trying to say or at least coming off as trying to say is that If you don't go out and canvas and give out literature then they are bad Democrats.

Most people from our campaign team couldn't even have helped if they wanted to anyway.  We did have probably about 100 supporters who would show up at the office periodically to canvas or call but for the most part our campaign team consisted of about 15 core people who were always at the office and organized all of our volunteers.  Of the those 15 people you have about 3 people who realistically could've canvassed for Dennis.  5 of those people were from out of state, 5 others(myself included) go to school and work full time.  My mother had to find a new job after the primary and hasn't had time in months to really do anything at all.

So what your talking about Clammy is a group of about 4 people who could've worked for him and either did or didn't.  I'm not really sure who worked for him or didn't its not a concern of mine.  Either way the point I'm making is many people took alot of time out of work or their lives to help campaign for Camille.  Because she lost it doesn't follow that they are obligated to go and support Dennis.  And while doing that would be a nice and gracious thing to do, it isn't required of people.

One last point, I did read the article Clammy, not just the spot where my Mom's name is mentioned.  Maybe you didn't because I've seen her name mentioned plenty of times before and have never commented or gone on a tangent about it, that paragraph clearly paints her to be one of the reasons that Dennis lost.  Thats a fact, I didn't say that the article exclusively blames her but it is clearly taking a shot at her entire campaign for it.

For myself at any rate I didn't have much free time over the summer and have not had much free time in the fall either.  I decided to spend my free time either going out to places like Pennsylvania or New Hampshire to register new voters for Obama, and do some calling for him up there.  Does that make me a bad Democrat because I tried to help get our President elected as opposed to Dennis?

And your right I do know what organizing does especially locally.  And again my mother told her supporters that they should go help Dennis, what else is she supposed to do?  She can't physically make them.  But also what goes with organizing is RECRUITING volunteers.  She couldn't organize an army of volunteers for you by herself, and some of who she told wen and did canvas.  But to some extent and you can accept this or not, not being able to get enough volunteers is the campaign's fault not ours.  Whoever your field director was should have been recruitimg volunteers and calling all of our people, if they did that then kudos, but I know I never got a call.


4 people out of all the volunteers and (4.00 / 1)
campaign coordinators.

Sure.  Whatever you say there.

And despite you "seeing her name mentioned many times before", just how is that my doing or related to this particular post?  As far as me reading this post, I will just laugh as I was a primary author of it.

As for the objectivity, being that she is your mother should be enough right there.  What you did for Obama was great - I chose to do the opposite and work in this district as opposed to Obama.  But for people that were so invested in beating Garrett to suddenly not be around, "have other things to do", or not stay active in the district race is something that should be highlighted - whether they (or you) want to hear it or not.

But it is interesting how suddenly people that dedicated so much time energy and effort to a primary were nowhere to be found, save a few here or there.

Why did one organization (that I will keep nameless for now) reach out to supporters of your mother's campaign in Sussex and Warren - not on behalf of Dennis but on behalf of this Democratic organization, only to be blown off?

Why did I get nasty comments on some of my blog posts that were either about Dennis or related to this district about him not being "the real Democrat" even after the primary?

As for your mother, I fully understand her working after the primary, and personally she has always been very responsive and nice to me.  However, why did not a single email come out from her campaign to her supporters about helping Dennis?  Was her list even offered up or shared (I don't know but I am interested to find out).

You may have had your experience, but I had mine, and I spoke to a number of people associated with a number of different parts of the campaign and district.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Whoa, settle down, now ... (4.00 / 3)
My own opinion is that Camille Abate played a part in cracking NJ-5, in ways she will probably never benefit from as an elected congresswoman and in ways that may not be felt for a few cycles.

She's a firebrand, an exceptional woman, and a dedicate progressive. I'm glad she ran, because the response she provoked in her supporters  - and the fierceness and resolve of her supporters, especially in the first go-round in 06 - showed people that NJ-5 was ripe for change. Or ripening rapidly. Camille raised the profile of people opposed to the war (early, I mean) and for an equitable economy, more strongly than plenty of people thought possible in the sleepy 5th. (Anne Wolfe moved that ball forward too).

But having said that, I never thought she had what it takes to put it together in the general, against either of the eventual nominees in 06 or 08, let alone Garrett.

And I didn't think the organization that formed behind her was ready for that either. Because with all that high energy she inspired, came also anger and a certain claim to purity. This piece doesn't call her out on that, it calls out her supporters, and I think that's dead-on. There was a lot of hostility, a lot of sniffing in the air with satisfaction when Aronsohn lost, and probably when Shulman lost. I surely understand Erik's reaction to this post, but perhaps he's too close to be objective. I would be too.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  


Perhaps... (4.00 / 2)
your right, I may in fact be to close to be objective.

That being said(and I could be wrong) I don't think any of her supporters, at least of whom I'm still in contact with we happy when Dennis lost.

However I think alot of the animosity that is being talked of may be to a point deserved.  I think many of her supporters(myself included) thought that we at least deserved a shot to get to Garrett.  After 06' where a 12 week campaign with no money or name recognition turned into a miraculous 34% in the primary we thought that we could really beat Garrett in 08' if we put together a more traditional campaign team.
That being said, losing the BCDO was a death knell for us.  We knew at that moment that it would take a miracle to win but we had already invested 6 months into a campaign and we weren't going to go down quietly.
You have to shake things up to beat something that hasn't been beaten before(the BCDO line under Ferierro).  Maybe some of the responses that were received from supporters weren't justified, and maybe they were seen as hostile.  That may well be and maybe the campaign was "over agressive" but I think that it was necessary to give us a shot.  Once we lost the BCDO convention we couldn't get press or anything from anywhere, and the only places that we even got the other campaign to appear in the same room were in the smallest part of the district at a forum in warren, a debate in sussex, and the sussex convention.  Once all that happens you can do one of two things: throw in the towel or tone it up and try to raise recognition.  Maybe we were overly hostile, but I'm not gonna comment on it because it will sound subjective even if it isn't.
For my part I know me and my family Supported Dennis and all wanted him to win.  He didn't which is to bad, hopefully next cycle we can actually get an Elected official to step up and run because at this point it would appear thats the only way to beat him, hes a true detriment to the country and that was the purpose of our campaign from the begining...to rid the country of his form of leadership.
As i said above, I really didn't see the hostility in her supporters...especially after the primary.  But I could be wrong, if I am then thats too bad because our goal wasn't just to "get Camille elected" it was to get rid of Garrett.  If people are really acting the way you describe then they missed the whole point of my mother's running.
As for me I will support any competent candidate against Garrett in two years and I'll be willing to lend both my time and money(I'll have graduated by then).  Anyway, the point of me writing this isn't to rehash a primary "feud", its simply to defend my mom and her supporters that I know and still communicate with.  I hope what you said about hostility is untrue, if it is its in the past and I can't do anything about it.  But theres my perspective.


[ Parent ]
with all due respect (0.00 / 0)
don't you think that comment should be directed towards me, since I was the one that you popped off to?

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.

[ Parent ]
Bottom Lines in The Sand... (0.00 / 0)
...what would have happened had Abate been the nominee in 2006.

I can say this much with some certainty; to beat Garrett in 2010 will take someone with balls of titanium and very razor sharp teeth.

Garrett has gotten away for 6 years now essentially  lying about who he is and what he stands for.  He is still a stealth candidate.   Garrett's radical brand of "Christian" fundamentalism and his ties to Dominionism have never been made into an issue.   The attacks on Garrett's voting record in 2006 and 2008 were factual enough...but could have been much sharper and more dramatic.

Garrett needs to be torn apart.  Being nice or polite won't cut it.  He's the political equivalent of a troll.

I could have some respect for Garrett if he was willing to honestly share all of his beliefs, opinions, loyalties and agendas.   He won't do that.  He can't do that  Scott Garrett knows that if he were to actually come clean about his gut level beliefs and agendas that he would lose.

If you look at Dominionist ideology they believe that it's ok to lie and to conceal their true agendas because they are, from their perspective, fighting the devil.

Garrett, and, more importantly what's behind him represent the closest thing we have in the USA to an American Taliban.

There isn't much that is more dangerous than a fanatic that believes that "God" is directing their actions.

Garrett must be forced to publicly reject any association with Dominionist ideas and theology or to openly claim it as his own.

His silence in that regard is damning.  The man LITERALLY walks away from news crews trying to ask him questions....and that's from NJ public TV reporters who only would have asked him softball questions anyway!!!

Garrett needs to be called out, in public and repeatedly on these issues.   If he can be forced to tell the truth, he can't win again.

If he disassociates himself from Dominionism and condemns this un-American subversive ideology; then he loses their support if he's being honest....and risks being caught in a lie if he's not.

To hammer/cut Scott Garrett down will require a candidate willing to get down and dirty....while simultaneously presenting an affirmative/positive agenda and being willing and able to talk about the specifics of that legislative agenda in great detail and at great length.

The BCDO is a major handicap to Real Democrats.  

Without a BCDO that is run by people who really care about Democratic/progressive ideals more than they care about patronage or pay to play Garrett will stay in office until the district is gerrymandered out from under him.

IF there is a primary in 2010 all the Democratic candidates must take a pledge to ONLY attack Scott Garrett.   Let the criteria for the voter's choice be who can best chop down this big old diseased tree.

Paul is a wonderful warm and fuzzy kinda guy; but he'd not really good at being the tough guy he would have to be to mercilessly obliterate Garrett.

Shulman has potential; but he has to get over the fact that he's a Rabbi and become willing to attack Garrett on the basis of Garrett's associations with extremist religious fundamentalism along the lines described above....and, frankly, Shulman should, as a Jewish American also overtly condemn the extremist fundamentalists in his own religion that contribute to the mess in the middle east.

Abate may be too damaged to run again.  Clearly many of the nice people here hate her guts.  She's an uppity woman.  To many people such a woman is perceived as a (do I really have to say the word? ;-)  It's a dirty rotten shame that this good talented woman has been given such a bum rap by some of the folks here.  

Maybe we need some new lovable hard ass to come out of the woodwork to carve up this phony hypocritical un-American inhumane nasty bastard of an incumbent?

If the BCDO get's cleaned up and focuses on getting EVERY likely Democratic voter in the 5th registered and activated/motivated that would add thousands more to the bottom line on election day.....that combined with a kick ass candidate will result in a Garrett defeat.  

Given the way the district is drawn, nothing less that getting all those "ducks in a row" will dis-assemble the tangled web of deceit that is Scott Garret.


[ Parent ]
Typo... (0.00 / 0)
The first line of the prior post should have read...

No one knows what would have happened had Abate been the nominee in 2006.


[ Parent ]
Hey Nick (0.00 / 0)
Hate to wade into these waters.  But if you think we were being too "nice or polite" this cycle, you obviously weren't paying attention.

[ Parent ]
Ask Dennis.... (0.00 / 0)
...about the specific point re his holding back on attacking Garrett's radical/extremist fundamentalist "religious" views/associations based on the fact that Dennis is a Rabbi.   I would be interested in what he has to tell you in that regard.

Garrett has two problems, one, he is a garden variety right wing radical.....perhaps the most right wing ring radical member of congress period.

Second he is associated with a brand of extremist radical fundamentalist pseudo-Christianity that is un-American and subversive of our democracy in re their agenda.

Garrett has never explicitly and publicly and in any depth or detail denied those associations or ideologies.

If Scott Garrett believes, as I do that Dominionism is a dangerous cultish elief system that deserves to be condemned, let him say so....and say why.   If he does that, I would be happily surprised.  

I've been saying this kind of thing about Garrett, literally, for years here.   It's not news.

Much of the extreme right wing of the Republican party is associated with these dangerous un-American movements (Palin seems to be another case in point).

Compared to how tough he could have been on Garrett, Dennis was relatively "nice".

One more thought, given that the BCDO had no interest in having someone who isn't part of their machine ever win the seat, has it occurred to you that they would choose to support the weaker candidate for the coveted "party line"?  I would much rather have had Abate tell Ferierro to fuck off...there was no way he was ever going to support a firebrand.

Why would they do that?   Because the last thing they would have wanted was for Camile Abate's campaign to catch fire.   I assure you, she would have either beaten Garrett or left him severely scarred and down a few quarts of blood and come very damned close.

As I said earlier, Camille damaged herself with progressives by attacking Dennis (putting aside any and all arguments as to whether the attacks were true/valid).   There is something about an aggressive strong woman that makes some people very uncomfortable....and, frankly, there is something about Dennis Shulman that makes, even me, upset with anyone who would dare be mean to him.   The guy radiates goodness and decency, Garrett should have been politically eviscerated for the ugly evil un-Christian un-American lies he told about Dennis Shulman.

I invite both Shulman and Abate to join forces with people like Loretta Weinberg and others to forge a statewide reform movement that has the aim of transforming/reforming the NJ Democratic party into a 100% pro people party....and that means 100% anti-machine anti-pay to play party.

One last bit.....another reason Garrett won was that he was actually right on the bail out.  It really was/is a scam and most people thought that when it was introduced.  It took a PR campaign of bullshit fear and terror to sell it....and now that reality is setting in....it will once again be seen for the scam that it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...

Here's one of the comments from the NYT that sounds like I could have written it myself (on a good day ;-)

http://community.nytimes.com/a...

Again, perhaps we need someone new to run in 2010.

It's totally counterproductive for the Dennis, Paul, and Camille people to be fighting here.  This is all complicated stuff...and no one is 100% right or wrong.  We must learn to respect each others experiences and opinions as we are, as progressives, generally all on the same side.

Meanwhile, I suggest we convene some kind of real world meeting of people interested in unseating Congressman Garrett.  

IF anyone else out there agrees, feel free to contact me directly.

uboughtandunbossed@gmail.com

 


[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
Hey Nick - You are completely off the mark here and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  

Ask Loretta Weinberg who she supported in both the primary and the general elections. And ask her what she thought about the campaign we ran.

I look forward to your concise response, in three paragraphs or less.  Best, TJ


[ Parent ]
"ASDF" Back To Ya! :-) (0.00 / 0)
Hey Nick - You are completely off the mark here and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  

What are you talking about?  Try quoting me and being specific about what is is in the quote that supports your asertions.


Ask Loretta Weinberg who she supported in both the primary and the general elections. And ask her what she thought about the campaign we ran.

Did I ever deny that Weinberg was a Shulman supporter?  Or that she thought Dennis ran a great campaign?  The answer is no.

(two paragraphs ;-)
****************************
PS

You don't get it.

I care far more about unseating Scott Garrett than I do about either Camille Abate or Dennis Shulman.

They both are people for whom I have great respect and admiration.  

Thanks to both for displaying the courage and for having made the sacrifices required to run against a scumbag like Scott Garrett.

Get it through your head TJ asap.  Camille Abate is not your enemy!!!

Both Rbbi Shulman and Attorney Abate messed up in different ways.

I'm not interested in rehashing past skirmishes here; but I'm also not going to let you play silly games.

Let's get out shit together folks.  

Let's see if the net/grass roots can find a way to put together a framework/strategy for unseating Garrett in 2010.

Frankly, I don't think the best way to practically do that is here in a totally public discussion.

If anyone out there sees any value in what I'm saying/proposing, you know how to reach me.

 


[ Parent ]
BTW, PS (0.00 / 0)
Would you call someone a "firebrand" who lied to municipal chairs by telling them she had Joe Ferriero's personal endorsement? Or someone who sent out an email to every committee person saying "Joe Ferriero knows that only a strong woman can beat Scott Garrett"?    

[ Parent ]
wow, that is a great post (0.00 / 0)
about Garrett and his very extreme religious views and ideology.  Many of us said the same thing about Palin as well.

You are right - I said that he needs to be kicked in the nuts repeatedly, starting now.

And I want to motivate people to help me do it.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Cracking the myth (4.00 / 1)
Hi Rosi - "dedicated progressives" do not scapegoat immigrants and talk favorably about "raids on factories" in order to win support during a Democratic primary.  

Just my own thoughts here.

I believe it's time to stop being so generous with Ms. Abate, unfortunately.  


[ Parent ]
i guess class isn't your vocabulary TJ... (0.00 / 0)
but ok here we go.  Number one "raids" on factories was never brought up.  Show me ONE quote where immigrants were used as a "scapegoat".  Saying to keep the same immigration laws INCLUDING checking on factories to make sure ILLEGAL immigrants weren't costing American citizens jobs is different for scapegoating immigrants.  You sound like GOP pitbull except your taking your aggression out against a candidate who lost FIVE MONTHS ago.  I mean we talk of hostility and bitterness to campaigns...this is the epitomy of it and its a joke and a lie.  Unless what YOU are trying to say is that you don't support our current immigration policies and your candidate didn't either.  You bring immigration up yet where do you find this quote?  What your basically saying is that because she is not completely pro-amnesty is ridiculous and malicious.  For anyone reading this go up and look at every post with her name mentioned in it, it will be followed by a comment from TJ with a negative connotation in it.  If thats not the definition of an agenda  I don't know what is.  Stop being so bitter and find something useful to contribute to the Democratic cause rather than looking for something to blame your candidates loss on.  Hillary's primary campaign had a much more negative effect against Obama but did that cost him the election? NO.   Not even in states like Indiana where it is as Red as it gets.  Noone wants to admit that this campaign was run poorly in some aspects.  In a year that was more favorable to Democrats then maybe any other year in American history, Shulman faired worse than Paul Aronsohn did.  There is no excuse or scapegoat for that, you can keep blaming the election on my mother or you can try and move forward.  Either way I think this is a pointless struggle but if you keep saying these stupid non-fact based things I'm going to counter everyone with a fact based answer.  I have no interest in squabbling on blue jersey but if you want to attack my mother's integrity do it on something that is provable otherwise you just sound like another bitter supporter like my mother's supporters were described in the above diary.


[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
Erik - It's admirable that you defend your mother so passionately, and I stand by my previous comment.  Best of luck, TJ

[ Parent ]
Please please (4.00 / 2)
Let's have some basic text formatting. You know, division into paragraphs and such?

Without comment on your addition to this conversation, I'll add that it's obnoxious to read one massive block of text that's not organized into paragraphs.

Thanks!


[ Parent ]
Urgent!!! Scot Garrett Alert.... (0.00 / 0)
Garrett will be on WNYC radio live soon with Brian Leher...

Their call in # is 212 433 9692

Let's flood them with questions for Garrett.

Even if the questions aren't allowed to get aired, the simple fact that he wouldn't take them will be of import.

Record the call if you can....
 


Ooooops.... (0.00 / 0)
...that segment just ended, the coment above was written just as the show started......then when Leher put Garrett on as the first guest; I immediately got involved in the process of calling in and was distracted from hitting the "send" button here.....

I did get to ask the question and was put on hold.  Of course Leher didn't put it on the air as it wasn't really the topic, or the reason for having Garrett on.

However, I dare say that every time Scott Garrett is on the air the programs should be bombarded with calls and emails asking the question of whether Garrett can be considered credible given that his extremist fundamentalism, which is essentially at odds with a secular humanistic constitutional democracy.

Garrett needs to be called out on whether he supports (in any way shape or form) the teaching of creationism in public schools.

Garrett needs to be called out on whether or not he is a Dominionist.  

And if he deny's adherence to that belief system/movement, he then needs to specifically say what part of their agenda he disagrees with and why.  

Garrett needs to publcly condemn in the strongest terms any attempt to impose any kind of religious doctrine on the American people.

If Garret is not really a Dominionist, then he needs to completely sever himself from receiving any support from that movement.

The problem that Garrett has (if he really isn't a right wing fundamentalist fanatic, but only pretends to be one so that those who are will support him with money and their labor) is the same that the Republican party has in the sense that a large part of their "base" truly IS un-American in the sense that they would subvert our Constitution and impose elements of a theocracy )if they could get away with it).

Without the angle of the threat from the radical religious fanaticism; Garrett is just another extremist right wing ideological blowhard.   That alone would not have given him three terms in the 5th.

Garrett's core of support comes from the religious extremists and he either has to confess to the truth of that and own that support or he must deny them and separate himself from their thcratic/extreme agenda.

Obviously he will do nothing voluntarily and the media will not cover any of this unless there are people directing attention to it in ways that are substantially newsworthy.

BTW At the end of my call, when the screener came on to say goodbye, I also mentioned that Steve Rothman also voted against the bail out and that, in fairness, Steve Rothman should also be asked on the air to discuss it.

Gotta go now to write a post to the WNYC blog to that effect....


[ Parent ]
Comment Posted To WNYC Radio... (0.00 / 0)

Crossposted..

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/e...

[6] Nick Lento from NJ  November 13, 2008 - 11:22AM

Brian, to have Scott Garrett on the air and not ask him to condemn the radical extremist movement known as "Christian" Dominionism is irresponsible.

Garrett is a stealth candidate/congressman with a hidden agenda and needs to be called out on that.

If you can get Garrett to publicly condemn the Dominionist movement as anti-American and un-Constitutional, then that would be news.

The question that you utterly failed to address in your discussion of why the Republican party is in trouble is the extent to which they have been taken over by the most extreme elements of right wing fundamentalists.

Now THAT would have been great radio and, more mportantly, good investigative/inquisitive journalism that would have provided a service to the broader body politic.

PS

If you're looking for local folks who (correctly imho) voted against the bailout; I suggest you also have Congressman Steve Rothman on the air. Now THAT would be "fair and balanced". :-)



[ Parent ]
re: Dominionist (0.00 / 0)
this is something that we can really blow up - can you point me to anything handy?

If not, I will do some digging.

thx--

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Report from the middle 5th (4.00 / 2)
I tried to stay away, I really did.

Herewith is a report from that little fringe that bridges Bergen to the wild west of Sussex, Warren, etc.

Please understand that what I write is with a sense of humor, although there may be truth hidden somewhere.  Please also know that when I say, "we" it is in the editorial sense, and does not purport to include many voters here, most especially the local Democrats.  And for the most part, it doesn't include me.

My report is anecdotal, follows no accepted electoral guidelines and is totally bereft of research.

BCDO Yes we get the Bergen Record here and read about the travails of the BCDO, the Real Bergen Democrats, the corruption and the investigations.  Ya know what? We don't care.  We don't like Bergen County.

For us, it doesn't matter what Camille or Dennis did to get on the primary ballot.  They were "birthed" on us.  So ya go with what ya got.

Camille Another woman on the ballot?  Isn't Hillary enough, already? Aggressive?  Yeah she was aggressive, and so what?  Well, women can control lots of resources and lots of power around here, but to act aggressively?  Only men act aggessively - its a male trait ya know. (like DWI and spouse abuse.)  And of course, she was too librul, which doesn't fly out here.

Dennis Regardless of the perceived or real internacine fighting between the Abate and Shulman campaigns, people pretty much forgot about Camille after the primaries.  We had Dennis, so what was he about?  In the beginning, " the Story" was a good hook.  As much as Dennis and his campaign tried to get beyond that, the media found it too enticing.  It seems like he had to get beyond the story, each time he wanted to talk about the economy, the war(s) and other social and environmental issues.  Gawd, I just hate the lazy, mouth breathing press.

The IssuesI have a lot to say about the issues, not per se, but about they were perceived in Northern Passaic.

Guns  Worst endorsement Shulman could have gotten.  Someone from the City, which we hate even more than Berger County - Yikes!

Social Issues  Our economic woes seemed to have a reverse effect on our area.  It's either a "we're gonna hunker down, no matter what," or as I saw in middle class Wycoff and Walwick, "We've got 401k's to worry about and kids to put through college.  I really don't give bird's crap about S-chip."

Ernie stealth  As the incumbant, Ernie has been quietly campaigning in our part of the 5th for 2 years now.  He has appeared at R gatherings, feigned suppport for veterans and the environment, etc. Someone check this out, but I believe Ernie has bestowed money on our town for inter alia a bike path that doesn't exist and a town center that doen't exist, unless one considers the Shop Rite parking lot as our meeting place.

And, most importantly, he voted against the bailout.  Like a stopped watch that is correct twice a day, he might have been right about this one.

Heaven help us.


Bravo! Brilliant! Thank You! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Your welcome - I think (4.00 / 1)
I'm not into the Dominionist thing, but if it floats your boat, keep sailing.

This is a fairly organized religion related community.   It ranges from the mainstream Catholic and Protestant to the more Christian gathering groups.  And there is a strong Jewish following in part of town.

Some are still interested in banning abortion rights and gay relationiships of any sort.

But many others see their fellowship in broader terms.  Like helping their neighbors and the broader community, stewardship of the earth, etc.

Ernie is a Christian, although I don't know what faith.  He is also a proponent of home schooling.

So, my 2 questions to him are:

Since you have voted against every social net legislation that might help your consituents, what is your church doing to bridge the social, economic and educational gaps that divide us? (If I were asking the question, I would not let him get away with, 'humida, humida, humida," and come up with real stats.)

I would also remind him that not all people are able or want to engage in home schooling.  What has he or will he do to ensure that kids in the 5th get the world class education they deserve?

OK, as I was writing this, a 3rd question came up, courtesy of clammyc, a few diaries ago.
What are you doing to ensure that the kids in the 5th have the same health benefits your kids do?

I am really thrilled that lots of people have expressed a desire and energy to eradicate Ernie so early in the game.  Go for it guys and girls!


[ Parent ]
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