BREAKING: Huge Momentum for NJ!!! Connecticut Supreme Court Rules 4-3 FOR Marriage Equality

Tip Jar (4.00 / 10)

Marriage Equality...here we come!

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by: Brian McGinnis @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 15:47:34 PM UTC

The decision should be required reading (4.00 / 2)

for every NJ legislator:
Here is the CT Supreme Court's ruling.

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 16:06:13 PM UTC

California Prop 8 (0.00 / 0)

I am worried about the proposition over in California to reverse marriage equality.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 17:01:42 PM UTC

Yipee! (0.00 / 0)

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by: Dvd Avins @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 18:20:13 PM UTC

ironies (0.00 / 0)

The Connecticut decision overturns a state law that adopted civil unions without the impetus of a court order.  Here, civil unions were put into effect as a result of a court order.

Steven has declared that our court is now among the most conservative in the country (obviously gross hyperbole), but one wonders whether our Supreme Court will review its own very recent precedent.

The demand for marriages in Massachusetts has been far below the predictions (from both sides) even with the specter of a referendum to overturn the law (which seems highly unlikely now).  It will be interesting to see how many marriages actually happen in California before November.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 19:07:02 PM UTC

Another nail in the coffin of the idea (4.00 / 4)

that civil unions provide equality. That's what this is. It's a huge momentum boost to that argument, and a blow to those who suggest otherwise.

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by: Brian McGinnis @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 19:10:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You don't have many epiphanies in politics (0.00 / 0)

It isn't a matter of either one day the light dawns and someone changes their mind or that there was finally one more piece of information and that finally tilted the balance.

Success involves persuasion of those who didn't start out agreeing with you.  To put it nicely, that isn't a skill that you and Steven seem to excel at.

If you really want SSM to become the law of the state, then having as many couples join in civil unions as possible is the wisest course of action.  Filing complaints with the State for the problems moves you beyond Steven waving a pile of paper and does create a tangible trail.  Otherwise, the Governor is going to recommend waiting the full three years for the Commission to "finish" its work.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 19:39:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Epiphanies (4.00 / 4)

actually tend to happen with great regularity in politics.  Among the most memorable is George Ryan's and Harry Blackman's - decades apart - where each declared "I will no longer tinker with the machinery of death."  Of all people, Ronald Reagan, upon having raised taxes in California, told the press "That sound you hear is the concrete falling from my feet."  Franklin Roosevelt, incidentally, won the Presidency by railing against Herbert Hoover's activist government and promised to lower taxes and cut government spending - until Keynes showed him a different way.  Abraham Lincoln decided that abolitionism was a worthy cause after reading Uncle Tom's Cabin.

Those are just off the top of my head.

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by: Thurman Hart @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 02:45:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Amen n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: Brian McGinnis @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:44:15 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

each of those involved one person who had unilateral (0.00 / 0)

decision-making power.  There is a BIG difference between that and a legislative caucus where there are maybe six supporters and you need 21.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 19:23:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

11,000 in first three months (4.00 / 5)

LA Times.

I don't see though why the number really matters.  

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 19:40:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's called critical mass. (0.00 / 0)

The recognition that it was wrong to have black people sit in the back of the bus didn't happen just because of Rosa Parks, but the muscle of a bus boycott by the black community in Montgomery.

11,000 in the whole state of California?  Almost one-quarter from San Francisco.  Maybe ten percent of all the same-sex couples in the state.  Not even half of the ones with kids.  And you think you're going to get Ron Rice or Steve Sweeney or Shirley Turner or ... to move???

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by: Creed Pogue @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 20:39:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Creed (4.00 / 1)

How've ya been honey?   I've missed you.  Question - above you say that "Steven has declared our court is now among the most conservative in the country (obviously gross hyperbole.)"  Please show me where I've said that and I will donate $500 to any non-political charity of your choice.  Love ya darlin'

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by: Steven Goldstein, Garden State Equality chair @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 21:59:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I had already found this (0.00 / 0)

http://bluejersey.com/showComm...

and I know there was another one because I had let the first one go by.

But, you've promised donations and lunches before and they haven't happened.  So, I am not going to get too uptight about digging up the exact quote.  It was bizarre enough to claim that the Court had moved "far to the right."

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by: Creed Pogue @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 22:32:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Creed, do you like gefilte fish (4.00 / 1)

and where in the earlier post of mine that you now refer to, do I "declare our court now among the most conservative in the country?"  I'm signing off until after sundown tomorrow, so you'll be able to potshots at me all you want.  But that's okay lovey - your passion will jump off the computer and send me a glow of warmth to make this Shabbat very special.

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by: Steven Goldstein, Garden State Equality chair @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 23:25:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

why don't you humor me (4.00 / 1)

and explain how you figure this court is "far to the right" of the one that decided Lewis.

Jon Corzine moved the court "far to the right" when he appointed Rabner and Hoens to replace Poritz and Zazzali???

Even without digging up your earlier statement, this one is bizarre enough.

But, a reply can wait until the Sabbath is over.  I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for getting you stoned.  :-)  

I will be away this weekend anyway, so I probably won't have much time to fix all that is wrong with the Internets.  :-D

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:23:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What Is The Basis Of Your "Concern" Creed? (4.00 / 1)

Please make the affirmative case for why you believe ME is a good and necessary thing...and for why it should be made the law of the land (as a matter of bnasic human rights) in NJ ASAP.......IF that is what your agenda is.

And if that's not your agenda?  What is?

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 01:49:59 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

another moronic post (1.00 / 2)

Calling everyone who doesn't see the world the exact same way you do a "concern troll" isn't a way to have a constructive discussion.

Calling all attacks on your flawed reasoning and warped perspective "ad hominem" doesn't make the statements any less true.

I do not need to justify myself to you.  You just continue to blather on and on and on and on....

There is a difference between those of us who have actually accomplished practical things in the arena as opposed to the wannabees who do very little and have no idea of how hard it is to get anything worthwhile accomplished.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:11:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You Fail To Respond To The Challenge Once Again... (4.00 / 1)

People who have dedicated a large part of their lives to the cause of ME and gay/human rights question your take on these issues, it isn't just me.

It tickles me that you have to resort to personal attacks to avoid responding to direct challenges.

You've been busted again, Creed.  I didn't call you a concern troll; you simply put the shoe on that fits you.  LOL

Why does this simple challenge frighten you so much....

make the affirmative case for why you believe ME is a good and necessary thing...and for why it should be made the law of the land (as a matter of bnasic human rights) in NJ ASAP.......IF that is what your agenda is.

And if that's not your agenda?  What is?

 

The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group.

 

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:24:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

you forget that you have already cursed at me (0.00 / 0)

and called me names (that is generally considered a "personal attack".)  So, I really don't feel the need to validate your continued blather.

What is your "strategy" besides howling at the moon?

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:30:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I Would Continue To Curse You... (4.00 / 1)

...but my conclusion is that you enjoy it too much.. ...that is the way of trolls.

My "strategy" re this set of issues is to support Steven Goldstein in his leadership role.   He knows and understands lots more about this issue than you do.  And he has a track record to prove it.

Note that you have still refused to respond to my challenge.

  make the affirmative case for why you believe ME is a good and necessary thing...and for why it should be made the law of the land (as a matter of bnasic human rights) in NJ ASAP.......IF that is what your agenda is.

   And if that's not your agenda?  What is?

If you are a progressive, you should have no problem giving us an honest/sincere response.

If you're a fraud and a troll, answering that question  (honestly or dishonestly ;-) will "stick in your craw".

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:42:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

nice to know that independent thought isn't extinct! :-) n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:44:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're "Thought" Isn't "Independent" It's Destructive.... (4.00 / 1)

....I've read what both you and Steven have had to say and I take his side.

You continuously second guess and undermine GSE's efforts.

You repeatedly attack Goldstein on an area of expertise in which he is clearly your superior.

You seem to be claiming to be a progressive; yet you manage to engage in destructive negative arguments with people like Carol, Bertin, and others which leave a bitter tone in the air.  You've even managed to piss off Juan who is about as tolerant and nice a guy as one can find in the political arena.

You consistently oppose good solid progressives like Loretta Weinberg and you've lent much aid and comfort to the corrupt BCDO and its corrupt leader Joseph Ferierro by opposing Weinberg and her allies on this site.

Creed, you are not a very nice person.  I don't know what happened to you to make you such disagreeable and nasty bully.

You can dish it out; but when you get a small taste of your own medicine coming back at you you complain about it.

So, once again, I challenge you....

Can you/will you....

 ....make the affirmative case for why you believe ME is a good and necessary thing...and for why it should be made the law of the land (as a matter of basic human rights) in NJ ASAP.......IF that is what your agenda is.

  And if that's not your agenda?  What is?

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 04:06:05 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

hypocritical (0.00 / 0)

YOU are lecturing anyone about how to argue?

So, you, Carol and Bert are now the only determinants of what is "progressive?"  And Steven is always right even when he wrote a diary supporting Hillary by attacking Obama????

Yeah, independent thought is in no danger with you around!  Riiight!

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 19:37:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You've Been Demolished... (0.00 / 0)

And by your own words....

You fail to answer direct questions.

You fail to respond to arguments.

You demean and belittle those who oppose you.

You make snide crass and rude remarks.

You  give aid and comfort to the likes of Joe Ferierro and the BCDO.

You give aid and comfort to the people who oppose Marriage Equality and  frame the issue as Same Sex Marriage.

You annoy and piss off people that are genuinely progressive to the core.

I, at least, have the guts to say where I stand and why; you weasel out of doing that.

As for being a "hypocrite"; to the extent that I fail to live up to my ideals, I plead guilty.  I'm working on it.  At least I have ideals that I'm willing to stand up for.   Thank you for reminding me of my imperfection.   No doubt there have been times when I've been too rough and/or ill mannered....and I've acknowledged them to Juan and others and have "chilled".  

You speak of "accomplishments"; I'm content to let the Good Lord be the final Arbiter of our respective lives.  

(If simply having a big impact on the outer world were the measure of a human; then Hitler would be celebrated as a very "accomplished" fellow indeed.)

I never said Steven was right about everything or that I agreed with him all the time; once again you raise straw men and red herrings to confuse the issue.

On the topic of this diary Steven and GSE is 100% righteous and you are just being a trollish distraction.

Creed it's plain for all to see.  The more you lash out the more you dig yourself in to a hole.

You speak of persuasion and winning people over; what a joke!  Your Modus Operandi is about as cuttingly vicious and ill tempered as any I've ever seen anywhere.  Your words are like paper cuts; yet when they yield a negative response from the recipients you cry foul.  Like all bullies; you are fine with dishing out the abuse...but whine when you get a taste of your own "toxicity" thrown back in your face.

You are capable of being funny and charming and clever when you try real hard; but when push comes to shove you get really cutting and ugly....and it's not appreciated.

The fact that you can "succeed" in getting generally good natured, calm, decent, patient, and smart  people angry and frustrated and disgusted with you should tell you something.  That is not a "gift".   That is not a "power"; it is a defect.

Of course, from your perspective anyone who throws your crap back in your face is being rude...I've got news for you Creed; no one here ever attacks you first.....they react to your aggression.  Frankly, it's probably a mistake.  "Don't feed the trolls" is a cliche, but there's wisdom in that injunction.   It seems that, on some sick level, you may be getting off on the negative emotions/energy you instigate.

At this point, I'm past anger and disgust,  I just feel sorry for you since you truly don't seem to "get it".    

No doubt this last comment will only serve to further confirm your delusions of persecution.

PS....In case you wish to educate yourself about why ME matters and GSE's agenda re this issue is worth enthusiastically supporting, here's something that may be useful to you....

http://www.equalitygiving.org/...
 

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by: Nick Lento @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 20:36:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

talk about projection! (0.00 / 0)

When I respond to your blather with facts, you respond with invective.  Continuing the "big lie" technique isn't going to get you anywhere.

If you become the decision-maker on what being a progressive means, then the movement will be dead.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 23:27:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]