What say you armchair economists?

Baffling (4.00 / 1)

Why do the Democrats in Congress continually back this administration and their lying ways? It is hard to believe that (as the administration claimed) THIS bill was our only chance, yet the Dems lined up for their Kool-Aid, just as they did on Iraq, the Patriot Act, etc. It didn't only happen in NJ; only 4 memebers of the NY delegation voted against this bill, 3 of them Dems (out of the 23 NY Dems in the House). No wonder Congressional approval rates are LOWER than GWB's. This is certainly change we DON'T need.

---

by: furiousdee @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 19:20:21 PM UTC

I don't think that's the case (4.00 / 1)

The Democrats didn't line up to drink Bush's brew, but demanded and got significant concessions for the final bill.  That should be portrayed by us as making the President blink, not giving in to him.

Secondly, a third of the Democrats voted against the bill.

Thirdly, this was a case of a total GOP fracture, with the GOP President and Presidential candidate backing the bill, a third of GOP voting
for it, and two thirds voting against.

I don't like the bill and am pretty glad it failed, but that doesn't mean that this was a case of the Dems giving in to the GOP.  

---

by: huntsu @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 12:06:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Right, I am pleasantly surprised. (0.00 / 0)

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.

---

by: FogerRox @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 16:55:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sanders and Kucinich Have it Right..... (0.00 / 0)

here's a good blog article that covers Sanders'
take....

http://www.thenation.com/blogs...

Kucinich gave a great short speech in opposition.

They'll pass something within a week......hopefully the bill will be modified/improved in the direction of Sanders and Kucinich rather than Garrett.

Ideally, we should let the shit hit the fan til the next president takes office; but I don't think this congress has the stomach for that.

Meanwhile the "financial markets" are having a collective hissy fit and they will do all they can to hold the knife at the throat of the worlds people even tighter.

We're dealing with greedy lying corrupt scumbags folks.

Too many years of unbridled capitalism has created legalized organized crime.   And the bastards now want us to make their assets liquid with tax dollars so they can cash out and sit out the coming hard times like vultures ready to pounce on the cheap properties that will be sold for pennies on the dollar.

These people belong in jail; not at the fucking top of the economic food chain.

---

by: Nick Lento @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 19:47:17 PM UTC

BTW (0.00 / 0)

 Kudos to Rothman for voting against this monstrosity!

---

by: Nick Lento @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 19:49:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sanders gets an A+ from me (4.00 / 1)

There needs to be a bottom up component.

I recently read that about 100 billion bucks will refi at risk mortgages. If that number is good, then refi those mortgages will make them desirable by banks, because of the long term revenue sources they represent.

That will stop the contagion. There may be some brush fires after that, but not as a bada as we've seen over the last month.

At that point a government infusion of cash will actually do some good.

But w/o the bottom up component, the contagion remains, and likely the need to bail out banks with large sums will remain too.

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.

---

by: FogerRox @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 22:19:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

$100 billion (4.00 / 3)

I have heard similar stuff.  I think the real estate person on the Today show had said that they could just offer refinancing to the subprime market and that would eliminate a lot of the problems.

I think the whole "derivatives" piece is where the scary stuff is.  Although, I wonder what would happen if we simply forbid any new ones and required the old ones to be wound down and settled up?

---

by: Creed Pogue @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 22:41:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes, notaional value of 600+ trillion (0.00 / 0)

there is not enough money in the world to cover the potential loses.

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.

---

by: FogerRox @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 16:54:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

in order for someone to have to pay, (4.00 / 1)

someone would have to BE paid.  If we froze the derivatives (CDS, etc.) and let them wind down, that would seem a saner way to go.

---

by: Creed Pogue @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 17:21:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

credit markets (0.00 / 0)

The real concern will be in the credit markets.  If people can't get loans and their credit cards get pulled back, then they are really going to hurt.

I didn't like this bailout, but the real question is whether something that I would like better can get 218 votes.  If you want to make Bush even more uncomfortable, if the House Democrats can piece something better that would get 218 and get a simple majority in the Senate, then one wonders if the Senate GOP would dare filibuster and the president would dare to veto it.  However, the putting together part is a big IF.

---

by: Creed Pogue @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 21:27:55 PM UTC

I think that this is exactly what the Democrats have to do (4.00 / 2)

Rothman is right about the larger issues that need to be addressed, but this bill is not necessarily where that should happen.

That said, I think that the House and Senate Democrats should be willing to write legislation that the members of its respective caucuses feel is progressive enough to represent the party's values, while still being something that is not going to cost us the Presidential election and our majorities and forcing the Senate Republicans and the President to take it or leave it.  Unfortunately, I don't think that they will.

The fact of the matter is that there are billions of dollars of toxic debt that has to be dealt with one way or another to reopen the credit markets.

I also think that the only way that the people whose subprime mortgages are at the core of this debt can stay in their homes long-term and have their own debt rehabilitated is if a public entity is in the position of controlling this debt.

That said, I wonder if there is another, better way to buy up this toxic debt than borrowing billions of more dollars from China, Saudi Arabia, et al, and passing even more debt along to future generations.

Assuming for a moment that the Social Security Administration and the state public employee pension funds throughout the country have a large enough cash position to purchase this debt outright at a deep discount and their purchases could be guaranteed by some federal entity, I think that there is enough of a potential upside from rehabilitated mortgages that a federally guaranteed investment of this kind would be prudent enough and could theoretically yield enough of a profit to help them serve their respective constituencies going forward.

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 22:09:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Economic Terrorism: "The Shock Doctrine" (0.00 / 0)

We're being played folks.

This is a horrible "October Surprise" designed to get Democrats to be the one's blamed for a recession/depression that was/is bound to happen anyway.

We got a reprieve today; but if this passes in any form without a solid 2/3 majority of Republican votes....the Dems will be held to account when more shit hits more fans  next year......they'll claim that the Dems watered down the "free market" solution.

700 Billion is just for starters.

We've been using these manipulative techniques on third world countries for decades...now it's happening here at home.

We need economic and social policies that are NOT driven by greed and/or fear.

We can do better!!!

Rush Holt should get on board with Sanders and Kucinich and others who will bail us out from the bottom up!!!

Let's take this crisis as an opportunity to implement a politics and economics that is rooted in progressive ideals of common human decency.

It's ironic that the only way to achieve real/broad prosperity is for people and government policies/laws to be decent and honest!  

"Trickle down" economics is a cruel joke....it just now finally occurred to me that the first syllable in that term is the word TRICK!

Live long and prosper!  :-)
 

---

by: Nick Lento @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 05:45:04 AM UTC