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The Faithful and Unfaithful

by: Thurman Hart

Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 08:48:52 AM EDT



When I talk to my classes about the manner in which we choose our President, I always point out that we do not have a single national election, but rather we have multiple statewide elections simultaneously.  The results of those elections are used to selected "electors" who cast their votes in the electoral college.  However, this being America, there is always the opportunity for a delegate in the electoral college to buck the system and cast their vote for someone other than the candidate to whom they are pledged - a phenomenon known as a "unfaithful delegate".

The party nomination process can be viewed as a variation of a theme.  Although each party determines the nomination process and delegate count independently, it comes down to statewide contests picking delegates who cast their votes based on the results.  And now we have a variation of the unfaithful delegate in the personage of Caren Z. Turner.

Turner began the campaign season as a member of "The Group" - which is, if I may say so - a name that simply reeks of a sense of entitlement.  "The Group" rushed to clear the field for Hillary Clinton, believing that all she lacked was a corronation process for her ascension to the throne.  Having been spanked by the reality of the electoral process, Turner is now publiicly considering switching to supporting John McCain.

It's her right to do so.  She is the one who has to live with her conscience and that, ultimately, is supposed to be what guides our vote choice.  I have to say, however, that her justiications for doing so are quite thin, and some of them are outright based on falsehoods.  More after the jump.

Thurman Hart :: The Faithful and Unfaithful
For example:
The people involved in Together4Us have a general dis-comfort with the way the Democratic process and the Democratic caucus system went down, with the Florida, Michigan representation, with apportionment, generally.

Funny, but until Hillary Clinton began losing in caucus state after caucus state, there were no Democratic voices calling for a change at all.  As far as "the Florida, Michigan representation" is concerned - well, just this Sunday Barack Obama called for those states to have their delegations seated.  With full voting rights.

Uh-oh.  Obama is "flip-flopping".  Maybe the interview published in The Record occurred prior to Sunday.  Maybe.  But Charlie Stile doesn't normally sit on a story.

This is another example of a less-qualified male getting a promotion over a more qualified female. I have been in Washington and doing federal legislation longer than Senator Obama has. That's not very comforting. Frankly, from a war perspective and a national security perspective, I don't feel safe with him.... I'm not comfortable with the people who he has chosen to affiliate with - the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, et cetera.

"A less-qualified male"...?  Wow.  Well, I suppose if we are going to actually toss out the democratic process in picking someone, then we would go with Joe Biden, who has been in Washington even longer than Hillary Clinton.  Or maybe we should prop up Senator Byrd.  

Talk about denigrating someone's service!  If she was worried about someone "from a war perspective and a national security prespective" then why was she backing Senator Clinton in the primary, who has next to no experience in those fields?  Clinton never served in the military.  Her only military expertise has come from serving in the Armed Forces Committee in the Senate - but Joe Biden served even longer on the Foreign Relations Committee and so did Chris Dodd.  So why go with a less qualified female candidate?

[Obama's] positions seem to shift.... He has shifted on campaign finance and he has shifted on FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] ... and he has shifted on a whole bunch of things, so I don't know where he is.

I'm not going to defend Obama's votes on individual issues.  I'll simply say that no one candidate can possibly vote the way millions of voters want them to.  Any candidate has to vote against some of their supporters once in a while, and if Turner can't admit this about Clinton, then she's simply being dishonest.  The truth is that they have remarkably similar voting records.

But, to be fair, not all votes are equal, and the two Senators voted different ways on FISA.

However, if you'll remember only four years ago, when Republicans were charging that John Kerry was a "flip-flopper", Democrats were saying that it was a good thing for a politician to not be battered into a corner where they couldn't allow their positions to evolve.  We've had almost eight years now of a President who just doesn't change his mind, no matter how wrong he is shown to be.  Frankly, I don't want to see any more of that.

I would say that all Democrats are not created equally and all Republicans are not created equally

This is true.  But this very year, John McCain has voiced his opposition to Roe v. Wade (a flip-flop, if anyone is interested) and has promised to appoint conservative judges that will roll back affirmative action and attack abortion rights.

John McCain is about as centrist a Republican as one can find. Hillary Clinton was the most centrist contender for the presidency.

Not according to Progressive Punch.  When ordered by lifetime scores, John McCain ranks as the 60th most Progressive Senator currently serving - behind Republicans Lisa Murkowski (Alaska), Richard Shelby (Alabama), George Voinovich (Ohio), Gordon Smith (Oregon), Norm Coleman (Minnesota), Susan Collins (Maine), Olympia Snowe (Maine), and Arlen Specter (Pennsylvania).  McCain's lifetime score is 13.86.  Senator Ted Stevens' lifetime score is 13.66.

Moderate?  Centrist?  Not John McCain.

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton's lifetime score of 90.87 ranks her as the 20th most Progressive member of the Senate.  Barack Obama's lifetime score of 87.10 ranks him as the 27th most Progressive member of the Senate.  Hillary Clinton actually ranks higher on that scale than does Russ Feingold. Twenty three Democratic Senators - and Joe Lieberman - rank between Obama and the closest Republican Senator.

If you look at the range of 0 and 100 being the limits on extremism, then Hillary Clinton is actually the most extreme of the three - she is only ten points off of the limit while McCain and Obama are each 13 points off.  I wouldn't say any of them are "centrist", but Hillary Clinton can't be considered "more centrist" any more than John McCain can be called "Progressive".  

The ratings also give the lie to any claim of ideological drivers as being the reason one would defect from Clinton to McCain.  There is a vast difference.

This doesn't have to do with Hillary Clinton. This has to do with fixing the Democratic Party, which is not functioning properly...That has nothing to do with Hillary. It has to do with infrastructure that is broken. There is infrastructure in the DNC that is broken.

Sure, things are broken.  But you don't fix it a "my way or the highway" approach.  And, if we are going to be 100% honest here, Hillary Clinton has had a very large say in how things are governed in the Democratic Party for the last sixteen years - she is a member and guiding force in the DLC, after all.  

The problem with trying to find Turner believable when she says it isn't about Hillary Clinton is that, as a member of Together4Us, it obviously is.  From HRC's visage in the header to the entire list of demands, it is nothing but a device to insert Hillary Clinton into Barack Obama's campaign.

One last point: No one is entitled to be either President or Vice-President, regardless of the achievements.  Coming in second does not give you an automatic claim to the second-in-command position.  Yes, John Kerry picked John Edwards in 2004, but Al Gore did not pick Bill Bradley in 2000.  Bill Clinton did not give his Veep slot to either Paul Tsongas or Jerry Brown in 1992 - the next two top vote-getters (in fact, Al Gore got only a single delegate vote for President).  Carter did not offer the position to Brown, Wallace, or Udall.  In 1972, McGovern did not unite the party with Humphrey (who actually got more popular votes).

So there is no "tradition" of the first also-ran becoming the VP candidate.  In fact, it is exactly the opposite.  

I believe that everyone should support whoever they want for whatever reason they want.  That is the heart of the democratic principle.  But I'd have more respect for people like Turner if they just said that they want Hillary Clinton because she's a woman and they want a woman on the ballot.  It would be more honest and they wouldn't end up looking stupid when all the paper-thin reasons they give are exposed for what they are.

Together4us isn't interested in uniting the Democratic Party.  They are in it for "us", as their name indicates.  They should just drop the false premise and deal with it.  They gambled and lost.  Move on.

In the interest of full-disclosure, I do not support HRC's placement on the ballot for any reason.  I believe she undermines Obama's position as an agent of change and that she will turn out twice as many people to vote against her as for her.  I do like her individually and hope that she gets a position in the new Democratic Administration.  

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No One is Entitled to be POTS or VPOTS (0.00 / 0)

But to not pick the person who ran a very close second says something.  Something not very positive in view of the fact that their election would raise the glass ceiling for women.  

If the roles were reversed, Clinton would have had to have picked Obama (for the very same reasons).  

Yes, Obama has the legal right to pick whomever he wants to be the VP.  But we don't live by majority rule in the U.S. for everything.  That's why we have the Bill of Rights.  Similarly, the primary is not a sports championship where you only care about who came in first.   This was a very close primary and the selection of Clinton as VP should represent that fact as it would legitimize the fact that the concerns of Clinton supporters would be represented.   For myself, I don't see Obama pushing very hard for progress on women's issues.

Personally, I reject the argument that Clinton undermines Obama's positiona as an agent of change.  If he isn't going to be able to work with a woman who is ranked more progressive than him and knows how the system works, then how is he going to change the system.  

-pb

Note:  I never supported HRC as the nominee (always an Obama supporter).


Yes (0.00 / 0)
But to not pick the person who ran a very close second says something.

Yes, it says they want someone else.  Just like every other nominee except John Kerry.

Something not very positive in view of the fact that their election would raise the glass ceiling for women.

Yes, everyone is mysoginistic for not bowing to the inevitability of HRC.  Give me a break!

If the roles were reversed, Hillary would have Bill vetting the DLC remnants for her VP and telling everyone that Obama should have dropped out sooner and not made her work for it.

It is just incredible that someone can equate not putting a person on the ticket with "not working with them".  My God.  Why not just insist that he divorce his wife and start sleeping with her, too? Yes, nothing short of a Barack/Hillary love-child will show that he is serious about her as a candidate.

Totally ridiculous!


[ Parent ]
Would you say the same thing about a Clinton/xx ticket? (0.00 / 0)

If Clinton had been the nominee and she had chosen Joe Biden for the VP spot, would that have been ok?

If you think so, then we really don't have much to discuss as we are coming from very different places.  

If you think that would have been a problem, then why and why don't those reasons apply here?

-pb


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
I would have been fine with that.

[ Parent ]
Strained Logic (0.00 / 0)

There is no tradition of a primary this close in the open era.  When there has been a close primary (think Reagan/Bush) such picks have happened.  

So one can't draw a conclusion either way.  One can look back at tickets like Kennedy/Johnson and see parallels (youth vs. experience; different geographical regions) to the different strengths that Obama, Clinton would both bring to the ticket.

-pb  


A telling comparison (0.00 / 0)
The modern primary era begins well after the backroom deal that puts Johnson on the ticket with Kennedy.  The only time the second-place candidate got the nod was in 2004.  Once, no matter how close the race is, does not make a "tradition".  Especially when every other example goes the other way.  It's called a "deviation".

And I'm the one with strained logic?  


[ Parent ]
How to Lie with Statistics (1.00 / 1)

Your logic is strained as you keep picking the specific perspective that proves your point and ignoring others that don't.

By the way, Reagan/Bush was in 1980.

-pb


[ Parent ]
Reagan/Bush (0.00 / 0)
was not part of the Democratic Party.  

[ Parent ]
Two different discussions (4.00 / 2)
We should be able to discuss whether we feel that Hillary would be a good for the ticket or not (my position) while all of us agree that Caren Turner has crossed every line there is.  There is no difference between her and Joe Lieberman.  Well, actually, there is:  Turner is a prominent HRC supporter while Lieberman made it clear from the beginning that he was supporting McCain.

While I strongly believe the "politics of outrage" has long gone past any point of reason, it is concerning that this is happening while Hillary is trying to say that she has done more for Obama than any other primary loser has done for the winner, Bill is "not exactly gracious" in interviews, various surrogates continue to push for Hillary as VP and Turner has her group.

I do believe that instead of giving Turner and her ilk the attention they desire, we need to go out and win anyway which will make them look truly pathetic.


Bill (0.00 / 0)

The main reason I can see not giving Hillary the VP spot is Bill.   He really has had a hard time keeping his mouth shut.

-pb


[ Parent ]
ding, ding, ding!!! (0.00 / 0)
And that comes from a strong Clinton supporter in 1992 (went to New Hampshire) and 1996.

[ Parent ]
"The Group" (0.00 / 0)
should not get credit for rushing to clear the field for HRC - if you'll remember, they were initially backing Mark Warner.

Regardless, I agree with Creed that we should be able to discuss whether we feel that Hillary would be good for the ticket (my position) or not while all of us agree that Caren Turner has crossed every line there is.


All of us? (0.00 / 0)

Ok,  I'm throwing myself in front of the bus here,  but I know a bunch of Democrats (yes, registered Democrats) who live out in Ohio who are really uncomfortable with the notion of Obama as President because they feel he doesn't have the experience to be Commander-in-Chief when the nation is at war.   They trust Clinton and McCain more.

Some wish they didn't have to choose between what they see a choice between national security (McCain) and good domestic policies (Obama).   I don't think they are correct, but that's what they think.  It's an argument that comes not from being a fanatical follower of Clinton.

I think we need to be realistic about where these people are coming from and not try to divide the party or mislead ourselves about the Fall election by denying these issues.   Today's AP story is on how Obama's support hasn't changed in the past few months even though he's become better known and how close many experts think the Nov. election will be.

-pb


[ Parent ]
Awesome. You know people in Ohio. (0.00 / 0)
Instead of forcing Hillary on the ticket to appease some small group, have you ever considered explaining Obama's foreign policy proposals and/or explaining the flaws in McCain's?

You know...doing some actual politicking instead of accepting their assumptions as true?


[ Parent ]
Um, yes. (4.00 / 1)

I guess that was Bus Number 1.  

Um, yes,  I do try to convince them of the error of their ways.   And I'm not accepting their assumptions.  I'm merely reporting why there are some Democrats acting the way they are.

Who is "forcing" Hillary onto the ticket?  We are discussing it.  That's what we do here.  But I forgot the rule, that we must not defend Hillary here.  

-pb


[ Parent ]
First (4.00 / 1)
thanks pblue for not backing down, because it's easy to fold up when it seems like you're speaking the minority view.

Second, regarding the "all of us" agreeing that Turner is crossing the line - my view is that she is no ordinary democratic voter (whether from NJ or Ohio). She has positioned herself as a party insider - a leader - and that she owes a certain loyalty to the party in exchange for assuming that leadership role. Not absolute loyalty - not by any means. But, a would-be democratic party leader does not belong backing McCain over Obama.


[ Parent ]
Just out of curiosity (0.00 / 0)
since those people have voted for the winners in the last five elections, that means that they didn't vote for Gore or Kerry either.

Do they actually think things are going well in Iraq and Afghanistan???  If so, they are in a distinct minority that is going to support McCain very strongly because reality doesn't mean much to them.  If not, then why would they support the continuation of the same failed policies????


[ Parent ]
I think... (0.00 / 0)
Hillary on the ticket drives away more independents than it delivers in hardcore HRC supporters.
I don't believe many former HRC supporterss are going to go McCain. They may sit out.
But I can easily see independents looking at Hillary on the ticket and voting McCain.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
I think she's entitled to support whoever she wants.  I just think she is being disingenuous about why.  If she honestly thinks McCain is better, then she should go with McCain - but then she shouldn't whine and cry when he appoints a Justice that votes to overturn Roe.  

In short, Turner can do whatever she wants.  However, her lies and misrepresentations are as much a threat as anything McCain churns out.  An honest opponent is nothing to be up in arms over - honest people can have honest disagreements.  This isn't that case, though.


[ Parent ]
another DC Lobbyist for McCain (4.00 / 3)
She hoped to have influence with the Clinton administration, and now has gone to the candidate that does the most for her company's bottom line.  

Good riddance.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch


The presidential candidate (0.00 / 0)
chooses the VP by tradition. The delegates could reject that choice & select someone else.  

Wow, a way to improve on the 1972 Convention! (0.00 / 0)
where everybody, including Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, was nominated for Vice-President because people wanted to let off steam and so McGovern got to deliver his acceptance speech at 2 AM.

Even if she was nominated, she would have to decline because to let it go forward would put the lie to all the "work" she has done to show that it isn't all about her.


[ Parent ]
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