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If it's time for a contrast, it's time for a real conversation

by: JRB

Mon May 05, 2008 at 06:54:33 PM EDT



Promoted from the diaries -- Juan

This evening, I received a call from state Democratic headquarters' phone bank (I think) asking whether I'd be voting for Frank Lautenberg or one of his "two opponents" in the June primary.

I told the person I would vote for Senator Lautenberg if he agreed to debate Rep. Andrews, but if not, I would seriously consider casting my vote the other way. They put me down as undecided.

Both candidates are at fault for supporting the invasion of Iraq in the fall of 2002, with Andrews being more culpable due to some mind-boggling statements, like this one.

Lautenberg's campaign is using vehicles besides the candidate to attack Andrews on this, which is why it's disappointing to see him declining debates.

Lautenberg has some strong arguments against nominating Andrews. He should make them in person, in a debate.
JRB :: If it's time for a contrast, it's time for a real conversation
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If it's time for a contrast, it's time for a real conversation | 37 comments
I met the Senator at Corzines (4.00 / 1)
Victory party a few years ago, Senator Launtenberg told me a great story about when he came up with the chickenhawk.

Honestly, I could see Frank crushing Rob.

OTOH I know little about Rob.

Check out my 3 paragraph primer on Polywell Fusion.

It'll Be 15 Points At a Minimum... (0.00 / 0)
I agree when you say....

Honestly, I could see Frank crushing Rob.

Andrews isn't content to simply campaign and to make his case to the people.  He knows that he needs that "money shot" of a glib slick/fast talking young man on stage with an old guy who can't talk as fast or as slickly.   Smooth skin vs wrinkles.

The image that comes to mind is from "The Picture of Dorian Gray"  if you're familiar with the story I need say no more.

[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
you would have to explain that to me.  Dorian Gray made a deal with the devil to not age so long as his portrait remained intact - so which candidate is that?
[ Parent ]
Dorian Gray Looked Great On The Outside.... (0.00 / 0)
....but was a decrepit twisted spirit on the inside.

Again, it's a gut level perception; but the more I find out about Andrews, the less I like him.  There's something very phony there imho.

He would have made a great press secretary for Bush.  The guy is a master Machiavellian spinner.

My prediction; if, as I expect, his political carreer is over in NJ...he'll be working as a lobbyist/PR type for big bucks in the MI complex.

 

[ Parent ]
I can promise you (0.00 / 0)
he'll be around next year.
[ Parent ]
Oh, He'll Be "Around"... (0.00 / 0)
....but will he hold elective office?

Will there be egg on his face?   Shouldn't there be?

This guy has double-crossed the whole NJ Democratic congressional delegation.....and has initiated a process that has many solid good decent Democrats (like our friends Martin and Jay L  and others) staying up nights thinking of ways to sink the good ship Lautenberg.

At some point (it may take a while) it's going to dawn on lots and lots of people that Andrews first loyalty is to his own ambition.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for any pro Andrews folks to dare to try to address some of the issues and questions I raised in
my recent diary here http://www.bluejersey.com/show...

If there was anything easily "assailable" there I'd likely be up to my ass in alligators by now.

No, Andrews is toast, and the more scrutiny is applied to him the more burnt he becomes.   He's overplayed his hand.

Then again, who knows?  Maybe you're right?  Maybe the Norcross machine will manifest ultimate chutzpah and appoint/"draft" him to run for his own seat after his wife drops out?

At that point I would hope a progressive write in candidate would emerge.......I would support Jay Lassiter!!!


[ Parent ]
Uh (0.00 / 0)
You wrote a 1200+ word manifesto in "Why is Andrews ducking debates?" I "dare" challenge what you wrote...but it's going to take some time.

Especially given the late results tonight in IN.  

[ Parent ]
No Debate / No vote (3.67 / 3)
I am getting tired of Lautenbergs dancing.

If he can't give the taxpayers of this State an opportunity to listen to him debate the issues , if he can't give us even a little respect, then he is done in my eyes.

Who does he think he is anyway?

If Clinton and Obama can debate numerous times so can he.  

absent a debate... (4.00 / 1)
...Rob Andrews continues to campaign hard.  I caught up with him at the last Town Hall style meeting in BurlCo where he took questions for about an hour and a half.

The most pressing issue for people is the energy pinch.  The price of (car and heating) fuel, the geopolitics, sustainability. the whole bit.



activist for hire.Follow jay_lass on Twitter

I'm with Frank (4.00 / 1)
A debate is completely unnecessary. I know where Frank stands on the issues, and I know where Rob Andrews stands on the issues, because they've both been in office for 20 years!!!!

A debate will do nothing more than highlight the presentation differences between the two candidates- and we don't need to see a debate to imagine who would be better on camera.  

Just because Rob is younger and prettier doesn't mean he is the right choice for NJ voters, and the Lautenberg camp is smart to avoid debating.  It's not necessary - the voters know where each candidate stands.

You shouldn't need to watch Frank Lautenberg struggle through a debate to know that he'll continue to stand up for progressive values and for NJ families.  He's one of the most progressive members of either House of Congress, and he's proud of it.  

I Agree With You; But.... (0.00 / 0)
.....we have to face the fact that the only "stick" Andrews has is the crying plea for debates.  

He knows he lost on the ballot position issues.  

He knows he lost on the questions of the genesis of his candidacy.

He knows he lost on the details of when, how and why he supported Bush's Iraq war......so what else can he do but to beg for debates in which he can play the youth card. A direct bald faced appeal to ageism is Rob Andrews only hope.

If the Lautenberg campaign thinks they can get away with completely  ignoring Andrews, I'd say they were mistaken.  

If there are to be no debates; then Lautenberg has to be willing to make that case, and make it aggressively.  

My gut tells me that Lautenberg is probably up 18  to 22 points statewide among likely primary voters and that he's tempted to try to just sit on that lead; that would be a dangerous strategy imho.

In any event, there's plenty of time left for Lautenberg to play his hand; but play it he must.

[ Parent ]
And (4.00 / 2)
I agree with you that the Lautenberg camp needs to make this go away - probably through doing one debate and make it as low-profile as possible.

However - where we might differ, is that I don't think it should be the place of so-called progressives on a progressive website to foam at the mouth because a more progressive, but older and perhaps less camera-ready, candidate will not debate his less progressive (and much younger) opponent, who also happens to be a Democrat.

This idea that "debates are always good" and "the progressive position is to support all debates" is just ridiculous and short-sighted.  

To not support Frank only because he won't have a debate is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

That said, I believe Frank will have a sole debate, at the moment that most makes sense for his campaign.  

[ Parent ]
And You Were Right... (0.00 / 0)
there will be a debate on the Friday before the election!   I look forward to seeing Lautenberg  take the "kid gloves" off.

 

[ Parent ]
Hogwash (4.00 / 1)
But a lot of politics is about presentation of ideas, and the ability to persuade.

I'd guess that most voters would be insulted if he refuses to debate the Republican in the fall, too. This isn't West Virginia and he isn't Bobby Byrd. He hasn't been up for a primary election since 1994. The Senator needs to earn his place on the ballot.

[ Parent ]
Umm (0.00 / 0)
1. I think that at age 90, Senator Robert Byrd has earned a little respect from us.  

2. Frank Lautenberg has more than earned his place on the ballot after 22 years standing up for progressive values and New Jersey families.  Frank Lautenberg is among the most progressive members of either House of Congress.  Andrews isn't even close.

3. What's more important - process or policy?  

[ Parent ]
The "presentation of ideas, and the ability to persuade"... (0.00 / 0)
...you mean the way Andrews used his talents to help the Bush administration write the legislation that authorized the invasion of Iraq and the way Andrews used all his persuasive skills to con fellow democrats and the American people into believing the lies that the Bush administration was dishing out in the propaganda campaign the got us into Iraq?

No one is denying Andrews obvious capacity for glib articulation.

Also, I wonder if you like the idea of a constitutional flag amendment or of putting up a fence on our border?  Both positions that Andrews has voted for.

The problem with Andrews isn't that he's a bad salesman; it's what he's selling.

[ Parent ]
as a reminder (0.00 / 0)
Lautenberg was an early supporter of the Iraq War and stated her was clearly in Bush's corner ("I'm on the president's train on this one").Regarding who is more Democratic than whom, Andrews has only a slightly less pro-Democratic voting record, as he has something like a 96% record to Lautenberg's 98%.

While Andrews and the majority of congress unfortunately voted on the flag amendment, Lautenberg has his own skeletons, from voting to declare the Iran Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, voting to normalize trade relations with China (HR 4444, #251), and presiding over some of the worst job losses in the twentieth century while in the senate. We're now dead last in federal tax money returned, and Lautenberg has neither the initiative, clout or drive to fight tooth and nail for fair federal tax money returned to N.J., as a Senator Andrews would.

An out-of-touch incumbent who hasn't done enough for his own state to merit reelection, who hides behind his media handlers, and is ineffective as a leader in Washington despite serving for over 20 years does not deserve reelection-- especially when someone with superior policy knowledge, better legislative prowess, and innovative approaches to domestic and international problems such as Andrews is there as the superior alternative.

[ Parent ]
where's the consistency? (0.00 / 0)
Lautenberg gets the blame for job losses but no credit for the economic success of the Clinton years? It's interesting how his superpowers are only capable of adversely affecting the economy.
[ Parent ]
yes, but (0.00 / 0)
Point of clarification: I'm referring to job loss numbers in manufacturing and in other sectors both specific to N.J. and the nation. Some of these economic problems/growths are not in the purview of the senator, of course. Surely, though, you aren't arguing that an elected national representative isn't at all culpable for the economic well-being of the state s/he represents?

If we're looking at specific economic indicators of a senator's might in Washington and his ability to bring back federal tax money, then the ranking (N.J. is dead last) of returned federal tax dollars to states is a good indicator.  

[ Parent ]
oh, ok (4.00 / 1)
Does the rest of the Congressional delegation deserve criticism for the low return on our federal tax dollars or only Lautenberg? I'm asking because this is the first time I've heard this criticism.
[ Parent ]
I think that's the point (0.00 / 0)
You shouldn't need to watch Frank Lautenberg struggle through a debate to know that he'll continue to stand up for progressive values and for NJ families.

If he can't get through a debate on friendly territory, how well will he be able to champion our causes in DC?  The spirit may be willing, but if the flesh is too weak, then it matters very little.

[ Parent ]
For the Record (4.00 / 4)
It was definitely not a phone bank from the 'state democratic headquarters.'  If someone identified themselves as such, they are lying.
"Democratic Headquarters" (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, I wasn't sure about it. "Democratic Headquarters" are the words that were used.
[ Parent ]
i just got the same call at 10:07pm n/t (0.00 / 0)
Debate about debates is a nonstarter (0.00 / 0)
This debate about debates is nonsense. It happens in almost every election for almost every office. The Presidential candidates have debated more than 20 times and we've had enough of those dog and pony shows.

It's all about their records and positions on the issues. Andrews wants the photo op on stage next to the "old guy". Frank is under no obligation to give that to him. If they debate, fine. If not, it doesn't change the facts of the campaign or the records of the candidates.

It's my hunch that if they did debate, the "old guy" would wind up whipping the young whipper snapper with one hand tied behind his back.

Re: (4.00 / 1)
It's my hunch that if they did debate, the "old guy" would wind up whipping the young whipper snapper with one hand tied behind his back.
When NJ pols practice for debates against Republican challengers, they often practice with Andrews. If they can hold their ground with him, they're ready to take on anyone. Plus, supposedly Andrews is pretty good at impersonating certain opponents.
[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
I wouldn't cast a vote for anyone who refuses to debate their opponents.
As A Rule, I Would Agree With You.... (4.00 / 1)
....but like most rules; there are occasional exceptions when the circumstances are extraordinary.

Their records are open books and extend over decades.

This history is clear.  The facts are known.

I, personally, would enjoy the spectacle and the drama of such a debate as much as anyone here; but I don't need to see these two go one on one in a debate to know who they are and where they stand....and where they've stood.

So, yes, debates...in general are good; but you know the line about "...foolish consistency...".
 

[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 1)
The facts aren't known at all. For starters, nobody knows who Rob Andrews is. And I bet 90% of the electorate can't name two issues on which the Andrews and Lautenberg disagree.
[ Parent ]
Use The Google (0.00 / 0)
The electorate (or at least the tiny minority of the electorate who will not be sitting at home during the June primary) should feel free to research the positions of both candidates, both of whom have been in office for two decades, and make an informed decision.  The records are wide open for all to see.

In addition to their websites and advertisements, I'm sure Frank would also be open to dueling newspaper columns.  

This is ridiculous - they will probably debate at some point. My question is why so many so-called progressive activists are foaming at the mouth for Frank to debate, when they know he is the more progressive candidate and they understand what his potential vulnerabilities in a debate could be.  

Smart politics and progressive values are not mutually exclusive.  

[ Parent ]
Decency (4.00 / 2)
So because
(a) Frank is the more progressive candidate and
(b) he in vulnerable in a debate
then he should get a pass and not have to debate?

Seriously?

I don't know if I qualify as a progressive-activist, and I am someone who researches politicians running for office, but it is important to me that credible Democratic candidates debate each other in primaries. I think it shows respect for the process, for the Party, and for the electorate. I think it's important to stand up and argue your positions.

The idea that I have to give Frank Lautenberg a pass on debates because he'll be too vulnerable in them is crazy-talk to me. If he's too vulnerable against a fellow Democrat in June...he's going to withstand Dick Zimmer? Riiight.

I'm dying to hear Lautenberg answer the question of "What has he done for me lately?" I'm dying to hear Andrews answer why on Earth he voted for the bankruptcy bill. I'd like to learn more about the candidates than a 30-second TV commercial.

[ Parent ]
Actually Zimmer Would Be an Easier Debate... (0.00 / 0)
....in the sense that the contrasts would be blatantly stark.   And there wouldn't be the personal contemptability factor.

I agree with you on the bankruptcy bill.   The banks/financial industry are raping working and middle class people.   It's all tied in to the "real estate bubble" and the medical industrial complex.

By my ideal standards both Andrews and Lautenberg are locked into establishmentarian views.  

But I'd rather be mugged than have an arm amputated.....and if Andrews somehow was the candidate, I would vote for him as I would rather have an arm amputated than a head.

It's a shame that we don't have many profoundly progressive candidates to vote for.

If Lautenberg needs to be replaced in the next 6 years I'm sure that no Democractic governor would pick Rob Andrews for the job.   Pallone, Holt, Payne, Rothman Pascrell all would be far more suitable senators than Andrews.

Andrews is the most conservative Democrat in the delegation; that alone is sufficient reason to vote for Lautenberg.  

[ Parent ]
Disagree (0.00 / 0)
Andrews is the most conservative Democrat in the delegation; that alone is sufficient reason to vote for Lautenberg.  

I disagree. Lautenberg needs to offer me something to vote for him; the idea that Andrews "is the most conservative Democrat in the delegation" isn't going to do it for me. Sure, Andrews has somethings I disagree with. But he's not Lieberman and he's still reliable on most issues (though I disagree with him on bankruptcy and would like to hear more about why he voted for it.)

The aura of "I'm-above-this-pesky-election" from Lautenberg, most clearly evidenced by his refusal to debate, is a turn-off.

[ Parent ]
To answer your question (0.00 / 0)
Yes. Unless you value process over policy.
[ Parent ]
Values (0.00 / 0)
I like to consistently uphold my values and I value debates, respect for the Party, and common decency.

I cannot honestly choose to ignore those values because debates might be bad for Frank.

Debates are much more than just "process."

[ Parent ]
Me too (0.00 / 0)
I got the call too, about 6:15 PM tonight, and said I supported Lautenberg.  The young lady didn't say she was calling on behalf of anyone.
no justification (4.00 / 1)
There is no justification for Lautenberg not debating Andrews, absolutely none; and Lautenberg apologists are wrongheaded in their defense of this anti-democratic, anti-transparency ploy on the part of the Lautenberg media handlers, who are seemingly controlling his campaign.  

Lautenberg needs to stop hiding behind Julie Roginsky and face the voters of New Jersey. In the past week alone, Lautenberg refused to meet Andrews in front of the Philadelphia Inquirer editorial board, for a debate at Richard Stockton College, and for a debate at Farleigh Dickinson College. When Kean Jr. refused to debate Menendez, we called him out as the coward that he was; I can't help but think that the same descriptor should be applied to Lautenberg and his refusal to debate Andrews.

If it's time for a contrast, it's time for a real conversation | 37 comments
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