NJ Kucinich Organizers Endorse Obama

We're not running for Pres. of 2002 (4.00 / 4)

Why is everyone so focused on whether someone got the initial call on Iraq right in 2002 or 2003?  There will millions of us on the streets opposing this war, and that doesn't mean we are qualified to be President.

There were also plenty of people who got it wrong who then did a 180 and got it completely right.

There are also people like Obama who got it right, then got it wrong by voting for the spending bills that gave Bush the money to prosecute these wars but did not provide any oversight, strings or timeframes for change.  Obama was right in 2002, and that's fine, but he was wrong every time he voted to give Bush unfettered money to run the war in a disastrous way.

These folks aren't running for President of 2002.  They're running for President for 2009-2012.   It's time to stop looking at the past and see who is right for us.

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by: huntsu @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 22:20:55 PM UTC

judgment (4.00 / 2)

For me, it's simple. I'd like to know that the Commander in Chief has the judgment to avoid getting into wars we shouldn't be fighting. Yes, it's better than nothing to recognize that it was a mistake in hindsight, and hopefully learn from that mistake and not repeat it in the future. But I'd rather not get into the mess in the first place.

It's not about the Iraq war in particular. It's about judgment.

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by: Juan Melli @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 22:56:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Strange Standard (4.00 / 2)

By that standard, who would be "right?"

What you have is Hillary having consistently voted for Bush's war funding.  Neither one of them is promising an immediate, total withdrawal which wouldn't happen anyway.  Interestingly enough, it wasn't so long ago that Hillary said the war was going well (when it was obvious that it really wasn't) and then accused Petraeus of lying when the insurgents decided to lay low during the surge.  She also continues to put out the specter of "what will happen to the Iraqis on our side after we pull out?"  Not that we shouldn't be concerned about that, but it is in the same vein as saying that you don't want the ones who have died to have lost their lives in vain when there was never a sensible strategy for "winning" to begin with.

So, are we just trying to blur the differences or are we holding out for "perfection" that we aren't going to see?  Neither makes a lot of sense.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 23:26:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What Kucinich Organizers??? (4.00 / 1)

Vin Gopal, April Kuzas and Michael Embrich are mentioned by name as Kucinich supporters who switched to Obama now that Kucinich has dropped out. There is also reference to an anonymous "...over 2 dozen local, county and regional Kucinich for President organizers, activists and coordinators" who also are reported as supporting Obama. I find this hard to believe.
I was NJ state coordinator for the Kucinich campaign with a personal goal of placing him on the NJ primary ballot. This was accomplished on December 7 when Alex Neilson and I went to Trenton and turned in the petitions that officially put Kucinich on the ballot where his name will appear on February 5 along with the delegate candidates committed to support Kucinich. Alex then took over as NJ state coordinator.
Since Dennis dropped out I have heard from some "...organizers, activists and coordinators..." whom I know personally and none have indicated a switch to Obama. Some will vote for Kucinich even if he has dropped out and some will vote for Edwards. None of the few I have heard from has indicated a shift to Obama or Clinton.
As for the two dozen who are now reported as supporting Obama, I wish they had stepped up when we were organizing and collecting signatures for Kucinich. I never saw any sign of them when there was work to do.
If anyone really wants to know who the real Kucinich supporters are and who they are now supporting, email me at NJ4DK@comcast.net and I'll try to respond without compromising their privacy.
And if anyone knows who these great unknown Kucinich activists, now Obama supporters, are, I would really like to know who I overlooked when I was looking for people to collect signature and hold organizing meetings. Maybe if they had helped we could have kept Dennis in the race.
By the way, I never met Michael Embrich at any of the many Kucinich events I attended.

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:18:55 AM UTC

Update (0.00 / 0)

Two of the Kucinich events i never met Embrich at were in Hudson County.

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:24:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Open E-mail to Bill Brown201 (0.00 / 0)

You never met me because I was with Dennis, not in NJ. Here is a link that may clear things up for you. I think you should retract your comment.

-- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22...  (Me on the left)

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:50:07 AM UTC

What's to retract? (0.00 / 0)

My comments were that I never met you at any of the Kucinich events I attended and three (not two ) were in Hudson County. That is still a true statement.
The link you provided shows a picture of you with Dennis in New Hampshire. That is NOT Hudson County, NJ.
We have two officially published coordinators for Hudson County. Check this link to the Kucinich national web site:
http://www.dennis4president.co...
Neither is named Michael Embrich.

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:59:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Open E-mail to Bill Brown201 Cont. (0.00 / 0)

Billbrown201:

I stated that I had never met you at any Kucinich events I attended. That is still a true statement. What's to retract?

Retract the statement that said "I wish they had stepped up when we were organizing and collecting signatures for Kucinich. I never saw any sign of them when there was work to do"  We were doing work. Just because it wasn't with you. Doesn't mean we weren't working. I resent that you said that.  I busted my tail on that campaign in key states.  There are 50 states in a presidential campaign. NJ happens to be my home!

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:58:28 AM UTC

What's to Retract??? (0.00 / 0)

It is still true that none of the people (except April) who are now supporting Obama showed up in the great state of NEW JERSEY to work for Kucinich. They may have been working in other states but that didn't help us here.

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 05:18:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Open E-mail to Bill Brown201 (0.00 / 0)

After some discussion with staff, it has come to my attention that we met at NJCU and maybe even at the Rutgers Law event. Check out the You Tube videos.  Why did'nt you come to NH???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 05:13:40 AM UTC

What is this based on? (1.00 / 1)

Alex Neilson here -- I was the NJ State coordinator for the Kucinich campaign from mid - November until Dennis pulled out.

Were the county coordinators (the people who actually worked on the NJ campaign) contacted for this little blurb?  I seriously doubt it.  I know I wasn't.  Then where were these "2 dozen local, county and regional Kucinich for President coordinators" that Mr. Melli found?  I was in New Hampshire as well and didn't meet anyone else there from Jersey....

This is why internet 'journalism' should always be taken with a huge grain of salt.

And not that my vote matters any more than anyone else's but I'll be voting for Edwards...

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by: AtheistPeace @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 05:48:30 AM UTC

Ok (0.00 / 0)

The premise of your whole argument was that none of the people named were involved in organizing events in NJ. It has come to light that all three names were very involed in organizing and attending events in NJ.  Why are you mad?

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 05:58:28 AM UTC

OK (0.00 / 0)

It started off, "I never met Embrich", Now there is " No doubt". Case closed.

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 06:37:36 AM UTC

ok... (0.00 / 0)

Here are the inaccuacies:

April was not the NJ co-organizer.

Michael Emrich was not the Hudson County organizer.

There were not even 'over 2 dozen' people working for the campaign, and most of those that were won't be voting for Obama.

Those are fairly substantial accuracy issues....

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by: AtheistPeace @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 06:44:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ok (0.00 / 0)

Wait.  When this convo started you didn't even know my name. Now you can't spell it. How can you expect people to believe you knew what was going on in the state of NJ???  

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 06:56:29 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

... (0.00 / 0)

I always knew who you were...you were talking to Bill Brown before.  He was the state coordinator before I was.

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by: AtheistPeace @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:05:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

.... (0.00 / 0)

Bill and I are two different people.  I remember you and I really have no problem with you...If you actually like Obama then I'm not sure what you're upset about.  I was just surprised and slightly amused by this little blurb/article after someone showed it to me.  

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by: AtheistPeace @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:08:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ok (0.00 / 0)

Vin Gopal, the national campaign manager, Marcus Brandon, the national finance director, Steve Cobble the national political director are all with obama and worked hard on helping Kucinich in NJ - Vin and Marcus worked the NJ Convention in AC and spoke several times in Begern County - April Kuzas organized a great event at NJCU, which I attended with you Bill. - Myself and others have been canvassing and working Bayonne.

The headline of the article is NJ Kucinich organizers endorse Obama - Just because you guys are supporting Edwards, doesen't mean that this article isn't accurate. You have really no basis of an argument at all. You did a great job on the petitions and worked hard but that doesen't mean a lot of new people, many from the national campaign didn't help out in NJ in the last 30 days - those people are supporting Obama. Thats the entire issue. Period. If you want to compile a list of those who now support Edwards, then go ahead.

For the record Dennis Kucinich backed Obama in Iowa

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by: Michaelembrich @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:12:32 AM UTC

... (0.00 / 0)

I'm not Bill...this is Alex man...we're two different people....I have no idea if he's supporting Edwards or not.  

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by: AtheistPeace @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:17:19 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Just my 2 cents... (0.00 / 0)

Hello all.  This is Tom Guarrieri here (Mercer County delegate for Dennis).  I do not know where Juan got "2 dozen" Obama supporters from...there were not even 2 dozen people at the meeting we had in Bloomfield.

I think this "belief" that all the Kucinich organizers back Obama stems from the caucus in Roosevelt Park a few months ago where many people (including Vin, April, and myself) backed Obama after Dennis was out.

I don't see how a few people (myself included) count as all the NJ Kucinich organizers (which is the way the article sounds).

I see were Bill was upset with the way the way this article is written.  I too have never heard of Michael Embrich.  I have also never heard of Marcus Brandon or Steve Cobble...they certainly didn't help me in Mercer County...

Finally the statement "Just because you guys are supporting Edwards, does not mean that this article isn't accurate."  Actually...It does.  If neither of the two state coordinators (Bill followed by Alex) have not endorsed anyone, then I do not see how Juan can make this claim.  It should read "Some NJ Kucinich Organizers Endorse Obama."  If you have ever studied predicate logic you would understand that the headline reads with an implied "All" attached to the beginning, which makes the headline inaccurate.

Anyway...just wanted to give my two cents.  

It was a pleasure working with people such as Alex, April, and Bill in NJ.  It was an uphill climb, but we fought the good fight.

-Tom

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by: Sir Thomas of Lawrence @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 15:34:43 PM UTC

statement is truthful (0.00 / 0)

I disagree with your logic.  Reading the headline and the first sentence, there is no implied "all" in the title. Organizers endorse Obama = Organizer A and Organizer B endorse Oboma

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by: jennypenny @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 17:50:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

One quick point... (0.00 / 0)

Hello Jenny.  Just to clarify something really quickly...this isn't "my" logic.  This really isn't the place to discuss Predicate logic... but the ambiguity of the sentence can lead to an implied "all."  It's kind of like saying "Joe and Jane are married" without specifying whether they are married to each other, or both married to other people.  That is my main qualm with the way Juan wrote this.  It makes it seem like all the organizers are unified when it is not the case.

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by: Sir Thomas of Lawrence @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 19:16:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

For what it's worth (4.00 / 1)

I know many Kucinich supporters in NJ, and in my recent conversations with them, I have not gotten the impression that they are switching to Obama.

Most say they plan to vote for the strongest remaining voice on the their issues - and that's John Edwards.  

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by: Jeff Gardner @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 17:06:58 PM UTC

Correct (0.00 / 0)

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 18:08:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

There Are 19 Names on Juan's List (0.00 / 0)

These seem to be people who were very involved with the campaign.  Like any endorsement, the real value is only known when you find out how much work will be done to bring out voters to the primary.  Obviously, it is better to have their support than not.

I would hope that people who were previously supporting Kucinich would not reflexively support Edwards or cast a protest vote for Kucinich because of some dumb things that have been said on this blog by people with no connection to the Obama campaign.  Obviously, the campaign is welcoming everybody.

Just as obviously, it is very difficult to construct a realistic scenario where John Edwards comes out of Super-Duper Tuesday with much to show.  Viability is the name of the game.  If Edwards is not at 15% anywhere (and he certainly isn't here), then it is a wasted vote.

If you are looking for the candidate best able to recapture the sense of hope that John Kennedy brought, then vote for Barack Obama like Caroline Kennedy said.

(Full Disclosure:  I am volunteering with the Obama campaign)  :-)

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by: Creed Pogue @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 18:35:08 PM UTC

Very Involved With the Campaign???? (0.00 / 0)

Most of the people listed were completely invisible to the real workers. Some of the national campaign staff occasionally put in  short appearances in NJ with little or no contribution to the real effort.
I doubt if endorsements of  Obama by the so-called Kucinich organizers mean much since very few voters even know who they are.

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by: billbrown201 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 19:02:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

A suggestion.... (0.00 / 0)

Ok everyone, lets just relax a second.

Juan, I think you may have been given wrong information...that's not your fault, but it should be corrected.  I do not know where you got that list, but most of the people are not organizers.  Most of them were not even contacts for their counties.  I'm sure they all supported Dennis and contributed to his campaign, but I have no idea what a "New Jersey Fundraising Team" even is.

Everyone has to understand that writing an article like this gives the impression that Kucinich's NJ team has officially backed Obama.  It is just not the case.

"Attorneys for Kucinich?"  I can tell you as a fact that Dennis' attorney's in NJ do not qualify as organizers.

I have a solution that appeases everyone:

Juan - Please change the title to "NJ Kucinich Supporters Endorse Obama."  The article can remain as written and organizers that support another candidate do not feel like someone is speaking for them.

I think it would be very diplomatic decision that would make all parties involved not feel slighted.

-Tom

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by: Sir Thomas of Lawrence @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 19:46:49 PM UTC

Here's an idea (4.00 / 1)

How about someone contact each and every person before they jump off the cliff saying that Juan is trying to pull a fast one?  Why don't we all act like Juan didn't personally sink Dennis Kucinich's non-chances at becoming President?

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by: Thurman Hart @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 21:23:36 PM UTC

Ahem (0.00 / 0)

May I remind those who think Kucinich has always been against the Iraq war AND has ONLY supported candidates AGAINST the war that Kucinich threw his support in 2004 behind - EDWARDS.  Thus kicking the ORIGINAL anti-Iraq war candidate Howard Dean out of the running.  If Kucinich did not play kingmaker in Iowa in 2004 for Edwards, Howard Dean might have won then.  This anti-Iraq war stance now is a little disingenuous - dontcha think?  

The folks who were anti-war completely and totally - who supported Howard Dean from the very beginning - well - I meet nearly all those folks at EDWARDS events now.  

It annoys me to hear Kucinich - who supported Edwards in 2004, suddenly be so anti-war now that he can't back Edwards this time.
Pulease.  Someone, beam Dennis up - and soon - before he rewrites history some more.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 22:38:25 PM UTC

Get Me Rewrite! (0.00 / 0)

Kucinich's decision to support Edwards in 2004 or Obama in 2008 did not shift many "county delegates."  If it shifted 5% (which I sincerely doubt) that would have been a lot.  

We spend too much time on inside baseball stuff and not enough time with the things that will actually move voters.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 23:09:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I have spoken to folks (0.00 / 0)

in the room at Iowa caucuses in 2004, and Dean initially had a lot of support - until the Kucinich voters backed Edwards.   It happened.  You'll just have to deal with it.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 00:12:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Were you in Iowa? (0.00 / 0)

Because I was.  That is not something that I saw and I actually hit a few caucuses in Des Moines that night.  So, that is not to say that there wasn't a caucus somewhere that Dean people just melted away when the ten (or so) Kucinich supporters went to Edwards, but that wasn't our problem in Iowa.  That wasn't even the final nail in the coffin.  Joe Trippi delivered that when he drained the coffers.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 00:36:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

My point is this (0.00 / 0)

The original anti-war campaign workers who backed Howard Dean for his anti-war stance from day one - that would be the Deaniacs, overwhelmingly are supporting Edwards now.

Kucinich using a holier than thou tone now about who was against the war from the start is silly considering he didn't support Howard Dean then.   He is so busy running for President all the time, when what we really need him for is the type of thing he does in Congress - like call for impeachment. He is becoming a caricature of himself.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 00:20:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The ironic thing is... (0.00 / 0)

he dropped out of the presidential race in the hopes of saving his congressional seat because he is facing a serious challenge.

Impeachment was never going anywhere and is a mistake anyway.

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by: Creed Pogue @ Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 00:38:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]