Moran Blows It

Hmmmmm (4.00 / 1)

As a Star Leger columnist, perhaps Moran simply copied his info from WABC?

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by: Fielding Mellish @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 15:55:52 PM UTC

Perhaps (0.00 / 0)

It was the editor?

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

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by: carolh @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 17:09:50 PM UTC

Possibly (0.00 / 0)

Though it's hard to imagine an editor taking accurate information and making it inaccurate, which would be the case here.

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 17:29:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Trust me (0.00 / 0)

It happens. As an editor and journalist, I know this first hand.

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by: Hank Kalet @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 17:53:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Next to the issue of giving amnesty to 20 million (1.00 / 4)

illegals who broke the law to get here to give Corporate America an endless supply of cheap immigrant labor, the detail of where Menendez was born is trivial.

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by: karenV @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 18:00:49 PM UTC

Lou Dobbs fans unite! (4.00 / 2)

Gotta love the folks who pretty up their hate in the language of populism.

It's amazing to me that you sincerely believe they came here to serve 'Corporate America' and not to pursue the American dream of giving their families a better future, just as all of our immigrant ancestors did before them.

And by the way Karen, they're human beings, not "illegals."

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 18:36:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ouch. (4.00 / 2)

I think saying she has "hate" is a bit farfetched.  She simply disagrees with you.

I would agree that illegal immigrants broke the law coming here.  I sympathize with their plight, but that doesn't make it legal.

And I would agree that Corporate America has been a major driving force behind this immigration.  Companies are looking for cheap labor and are exploiting illegal immigrants to get it.  Duh.

Now, we may or may not agree about what should be done.  For instance, I think it would be impossible to round up millions of illegal immigrants for deportation.  Likewise, I think building a giant fence at the border would be futile, not to mention a giant waste of money.

If the government wants to get serious about controlling illegal immigration, it will start fining corporations $50,000 every time they knowingly hire an illegal immigrant.  The day that happens is that day the majority of illegal immigration stops.

But that won't happen because, as it stands now, the system works for the people in power.  It's easier to blame the immigrants and treat them like second-class citizens than to get real.

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by: Moxie Sebright @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:19:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch. (3.20 / 5)

Yeah, I'm just not going to play nice here. Hate is hate and needs to be called out and smashed immediately. The vitriol in her position -- "illegals who broke the law to get here to give Corporate America an endless supply of cheap immigrant labor" -- is clearly hateful and loaded. It implies that the people mentioned are sub-human automatons who are driven by nothing more than mercenary interests. The very word "illegals" is a term meant to strip them of their humanity and turn them into nothing more than a rhetorical device in a political debate.

You hit the nail on the head with your last graf.

It's easier to blame the immigrants and treat them like second-class citizens than to get real.

That's exactly what people like Karen are doing. We may have to agree to disagree on this point, but I find it to be hateful.

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:31:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hey Karen... (0.00 / 0)

You want to debate my point? Bring it on. But don't hide behind a baseless troll-rating.

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 20:34:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Seconded... (0.00 / 0)

and I added another 4, so it's now an even 3, up from 2.67 before I got to it.  Anyone else want to cancel Karen's troll-rating out?

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by: progressivemuslimnj @ Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 16:35:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here, here!! (0.00 / 0)

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by: progressivemuslimnj @ Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 16:33:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

irish pride (0.00 / 0)

illegals?

kind of like my Irish grandfather?

activist for hire.

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by: Jay Lassiter @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 18:48:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree (4.00 / 1)

Tom Moran got this fact incorrect but no one's perfect--mistakes happen and I don't think it warrants that strong of a reaction.  I think he's pretty good generally and look forward to his columns. 

I also agree with Karen's point about illegal immigrants.  I don't care if it's 12 million illegal French people or anyone else--it's too illegal and it's too many.  Either we're a soverign nation or we're not.  Parlez-vous francaise?  IMO, please just apply legally and it doesn't matter where you come from.

Peace.

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by: tracey @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:32:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Disagree... (0.00 / 0)

and Shields is on the mark.

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by: progressivemuslimnj @ Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 16:36:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Is it only (0.00 / 0)

trivial because there are so many people here illegally?  That's a rather glaring admission of bigotry on your part.

Let's be clear - the people who employ "domestics" are not Corporate America.  Nor are the huge number of construction contractors and restaraunteurs who misuse and abuse them so they can pad their bank accounts.  Yes, some corporations make a ton of money, but your friendly, neighborhood small-businessman is just as likely to be doing it.

Just a further point - why is it that we single out immigration law violators to be called "illegals".  Do you get called an "illegal" when you break traffic laws?

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by: Hudson Observer @ Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Three? (0.00 / 0)

Mel Martinez and Bob Menendez are, as far as I'm aware, the only two Senators of Cuban descent.  There are four more in the House - Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Mario Diaz-Balart, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and Albo Sires.

I can be wrong - but who is the mysterious third Senator?

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by: Thurman Hart @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:15:58 PM UTC

Three (4.00 / 1)

Moran said three Latinos -- the other is Salazar from Colorado.

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by: Hank Kalet @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:22:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Three (0.00 / 0)

Democratic Senator Ken Salazar of Colorado.  Moran actually wrote "three Latino senators," not Cuban, so Salazar counts.

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:22:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

seems (0.00 / 0)

we posted at the same time

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by: Hank Kalet @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:23:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Per Tom Moran: (4.00 / 3)

Subject:  RE: Sen. Menendez an immigrant?
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:09:43 -0400
From: "MORAN, TOM"   Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book  Add Mobile Alert
To: "Dennis C. McGrath"

Thanks. It was my mistake. Correction running tomorrow.

From: Dennis C. McGrath [mailto:denniscmcgrat...]
Sent: Wed 6/13/2007 2:41 PM
To: MORAN, TOM
Subject: Sen. Menendez an immigrant?

In your current column, you state Sen. Robert Menendez
is an immigrant.

It was my understanding that he is a native American,
born in New York City, and the son of immigrants from
Cuba.

Were you not aware of this, or did some copy editor
'assist' you by adding the error to your story?

Yours,

Dennis C. McGrath

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:28:26 PM UTC

The illegal activity that concerns me (0.00 / 0)

is that of the American citizens who employ undocumented immigrants.

Wouldn't America be just perfect if we incarcerated the one million employers of the 12 million illegals?

Of course, who is going to pick your vegetables, wash your dishes, pave your driveway, iron your clothes, vacuum your hotel room, change the sheets, and on and on and on, will remain an open question ... but at least we'll have cleansed America of all those law-breakin' employers! It's illegal! It's THAT SIMPLE ...

Parlez-vouz ignorance, s'il vous plait?

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 19:43:31 PM UTC

Untitled (0.00 / 0)

American employers who hire illigal immigrants I believe are breaking the law and the current laws should be enforced.  All this "on and on" cheap labor that you refer to comes at an expensive monetary cost for social expenses, i.e., education, welfare, medical care, etc.  Suddenly the $1 tomato actually casts $3, or whatever, in cost to US taxpayers.

Parlez-vous name calling?  No need for that!

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by: tracey @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 20:02:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you (4.00 / 1)

Tracy, for your oh so well researched talking points.

http://www.americanp...

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by: SmartyJones @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 20:37:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not talking points (0.00 / 0)

What I have written is my opinion.  You don't have to mock it just because it may be different from yours.

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by: tracey @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 21:02:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"Opinion" (4.00 / 1)

Can we all agree to stop hiding behind this "difference of opinion" nonsense? If you present your opinion as a hard fact and someone calls you out, you can't just turn around and say, "well, we have a difference of opinion." Green is a color, a sofa is furniture, and steel is a metal -- those are not matters of opinion.

So if you're going to say something like, "cheap labor that you refer to comes at an expensive monetary cost for social expenses, i.e., education, welfare, medical care, etc.," you'd better be ready and willing to back it up with facts. Otherwise, someone like Smarty is going to come along with research that contradicts you. And you're perfectly free to present facts that contradict them.

But it's not a matter of "opinion."

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 21:14:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bingo, Dennis! (0.00 / 0)

You spoke my views exactly.  The focus on the immigrants is a dead end, IMHO.  Laws already exist to prosecute (Chris Christie, ahem!!!) illegal employers.  If anything, add a simple one-sentence amendment to that law to mandate 30-day prison terms for first-time illegal hiring, 60-day second, etc.

If the employers were the focus, those who had true need would properly apply for work visas for specialized labor, which already exists but is just backlogged.  The workers would be paid on the books, get employer-paid health insurance, pay their taxes, be able to test to EARN driver's licenses, etc. Menendez' humane and logical approach of keeping families intact is, I think, already accounted for in this work visa program.

I liked Moran's column overall.  It's good this opened discussion, but I don't think the mistake is too out of the ordinary.

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by: Jim33 @ Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 05:03:18 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Tom Moran's a great columnist, a vital progressive voice (0.00 / 0)

He made a mistake.  So.  He's correcting it tomorrow, per this email chain.  Time to move on.  We have worse fish to fry than a good guy like him.

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by: Steven Goldstein, Garden State Equality chair @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 20:41:23 PM UTC

This thread (0.00 / 0)

is no longer about Tom Moran's mistake, it's become a two bit debate about immigration reform, by people who have no knowledge of history, even relatively recent history.

http://www.truthout....

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by: SmartyJones @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 20:51:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I disagree (4.00 / 1)

Sorry Steven, you know I have nothing but respect for you, but I disagree. The fact that Moran is "a great columnist" and "a vital progressive voice" makes this kind of mistake even less acceptable.

I bent over backwards to make it clear that "I like Tom Moran," that people "speak very highly of him" personally, and that his work is "solid journalism." No one's raking him over the coals here, just pointing out a really disappointing mistake that ought not be repeated.

Now, if it was a conservative columnist who made this mistake, I would have gone much further. Mislabeling Senator Menendez as an immigrant serves to undermine his position on immigration reform in the Senate, painting him as personally interested, thereby challenging his credibility on the topic. Moran's stellar record spared him from that.

The job of the netroots is not to give people a pass, but to hold people accountable. That doesn't stop just because Tom Moran's an otherwise good guy.

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by: Scott Shields @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 21:00:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree (0.00 / 0)

Although I am disappointed about the level of vitriol and name calling.  Oh well.

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by: tracey @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 21:10:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Tempest in a teapot (0.00 / 0)

Green, herbal, or spliff?

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by: Wesleylake @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 22:03:10 PM UTC