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Why I Support Eliminating Sick Day Payouts

by: huntsu

Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 03:48:43 PM EST



Yeah, I back the idea of eliminating sick day payouts.  Not for the reason Steve Sweeney or Chris Christie are, to save money, but I do think it's a good idea.  

Before I go any further, I agree with Jersey Jazzman that there should be some tat for this tit.  As I said the Sweeney-Christie team are looking to reduce government costs, but I don't think that should be done on the backs of workers.

But sick days are necessary to the health of the employees, the health of the various governments and the health of the state.  

More below the fold.

huntsu :: Why I Support Eliminating Sick Day Payouts
In short, sick days should be for staying home when you or a family member are sick.  They are not for going to the beach, getting a deep-tissue massage (oh, I could use one), or padding retirement payouts.  

When you allow employees to carry many sick days over many do not take sick days.  Instead they come in to work with colds, flus and other diseases while contagious.  This is a danger to their co-workers, their co-workers families, and the public who is relying on these people to do their jobs.  Staying home means you don't spread the disease, which means fewer people getting sick and that's a good thing.

It also means, in the long run, higher productivity at work.  If you stay home two days and get all better then you can work the other three days of the week at high performance.  If you don't stay home then you are probably going to be sick all week and do things like misplace anthrax samples or give out identification cards to underage soon-to-be-drinkers.

People say that staying home when you are sick gets you in bad with the boss.  Well, that's because we let it get this way.  If you're in a union and you let the bosses get away with making you come in sick, how is that different from them making you work extra hours without compensation?  Go to the union and get them to stand up for workers.  And where the hell are the union stewards in this?  If you see your members sick at work send them the fuck home.  

I mean, we have sick days because of unions and the unions aren't enforcing their use.  Instead they are fighting to reward people for not staying home sick. How is that doing their job?

There are a few cases of people gaming the system and cashing out huge paydays, sure.  They're the poster children for the Sweeney's of the world who demand to end the practice.  But in truth they don't cost us too much and the $15K limit already in place from last summer would handle that.

Now, most government workers these days are getting PTOs instead of separating sick and vacation days, so the pressure to protect sick days is not as great.  But I feel the same way about vacation days that I do about sick days.

Americans work to damned much, too many damned hours.  What we're fighting for here is a system where you are rewarded for over-working yourself, which keeps you from your family, from recreation, from participating in civic activities -- like Blue Jersey or electoral politics!

Face it, the 1% (or, probably, the 20%) absolutely fucking love it that the other 80% or us are overworked, stressed out and terrified of losing our jobs because it makes us into sheep.  If we're too tired at the end of the day to go to a public meeting, they can do what they want.  If we can't get it together to learn more about the candidates, they can keep running shitheels up the flagpole and get them in Congress or Drumthwacket or wherever else they can help the rich folks out there.

For too long it has been assumed in this country that working 52 weeks is better than working 48, and the people who work 52 should be rewarded.  That's not only stupid for the employees, but for the employer!  The employees wind up depressed and sick while the employers get less productive employees.

In any sane model employees would be thanked for staying home when they are sick, contagious and less productive.  Employers would force their employees to take their vacation time, go be with their families and friends and come back refreshed and ready to work.

While I don't believe that is the intent of Sweeney and Christie, I do believe that is an end result of such a policy change.  Not immediate, as supervisors will continue to press people to come in sick and not take vacations.  But over time the employees will rise up and say, "Kiss my ass, these days are my compensation and I am taking them."

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LOL. Common Sense promoted ! (0.00 / 0)
Sick days for sick people.

End of conversation.

The perk is over.Be thankful it wa there before but it is now gone.

Move on.

Sweeney ,at least ,got something for those who had the perk.

Defending sick pay payouts is laughable.


The only thing laughable is you (0.00 / 0)
You don't even get it.  It went right over your head, which is not surprising.

[ Parent ]
Do you have to be like this? (4.00 / 1)
If you want to actually have conversations it's best not to start by being a jerk.

[ Parent ]
come on by! (0.00 / 0)
I would love to give you this wonderful children's virus that my fellow teachers and I have been battling for the last two months.  Come on by so I can infect you and you can use some of your sick days, sicko.  

Use 'em (0.00 / 0)
All this bill states is that you cannot cash your days in when you retire.

If you are sick ,use your days.If you are sick and you still come in,fine.

But NO CASH  WHEN YOU RETIRE!  


[ Parent ]
Easy to say... (0.00 / 0)
...until you're in the trenches. Like nkromann and HurtPillow point out, teachers get sick but then are given the third degree if they dare call out. After all, the school has to get a substitute, the sick teacher has to make sure that day's lessons are prepared and ready to go, and all this in the wee hours of the morning before school starts. So, when you wake up sick at 5:00 in the morning, you make up your mind pretty quickly that it's better to go in sick than to communicate it far and wide, arrange for the substitute and face the repercussions for being sick. I get to witness my husband having to do the mental calculus of this all the time. That bottle of Purell on his desk can only accomplish so much.

[ Parent ]
Tough Profession (0.00 / 0)
I strongly admire teachers.

But what does this have to do with the argument that government workers can no longer cash in sick days at retirement?

If the union that your husband belongs to is so weak and wimpy that your husband is fearful to call in sick ,knowing his union contract and union leaders will not back him up,then the real problem is the weak union.

 


[ Parent ]
I was reminding you... (0.00 / 0)
...that it's easy for you to say things like:

If you are sick ,use your days.

when you apparently don't know what it's actually like to be in the situation I described. Spend a few weeks teaching, then come back and tell people what they must do.

In any event, if the idea is to get teachers to take more sick days when they are in fact sick, great. Get ready for schools to have to spend lots more money on substitute teachers. That payout for unused paydays (which is capped, by the way, in my husband's district) will look like peanuts in comparison.


[ Parent ]
Well ... (0.00 / 0)
I was a teacher, my spouse is looking for a teaching job, and I still think this.

The union has to step up here.  The unions will fight for the payout, but not the right to take negotiated sick days without being given the third degree?  

It is the best thing for their members to stay home sick when they are sick, far better than getting an extra $50K after 30 years of work.

It is the best thing for the schools to have teachers stay home sick because the teachers will do a better job when they come back in.

It is the best thing for students to have teachers stay home sick because they don't make the kids sick.

It's better for the parents to have teachers stay home sick because the kids don't bring the illnesses home and force parents to take sick days themselves either getting sick themselves or taking care of a sick kid.


[ Parent ]
The union won't step up here (0.00 / 0)
They have never stepped up here when they were far stronger than they are now, so they surely won't step up here now that they are as weak as they are right now.

Conceptually, you are absolutely right, but it is much easier for the unions to fight a legislative battle, which they will most likely lose, than change the culture of the workplace, which they have no ability or interest in doing.


[ Parent ]
I absolutely agree (0.00 / 0)
But in an environment in which it seems like the NJEA and its locals are having to fight multiple battles (working without a contract in many cases, the voucher bill, tenure reform, the list goes on and on), I wonder if its down to picking your battles. There are only so many resources to fight these many battles, after all. I know a lot of people in the locals are, frankly, war-weary and disillusioned.

[ Parent ]
It's in the contract (0.00 / 0)
so the union should defend it no less than unpaid overtime, dangerous workplaces, not getting breaks, etc. as a service to their members.

They are willing to defend sick day payouts publicly and vocally, so why not give that up and defend taking sick days.  Better optics, and by supporting the end of the payouts they can use the opened up resources to pick a fight that will help your members.


[ Parent ]
different fights in different places (0.00 / 0)
It is much easier for the NJEA to fight a legislative battle in Trenton than to fight the workplace culture in thousands of schools and hundreds of school districts.

[ Parent ]
NJEA is a failure (0.00 / 0)
If they cannot defend their members and their contract then they sould get out of the union business and stop collecting dues.

Is the NJEA turning into the same paper tiger union as CWA?

At least CWA members can take their contractually fought for sick days.


[ Parent ]
Sick days... (0.00 / 0)
Yes, we take them in my school and then we're written up and put on a corrective action plan.  We don't take them and come in sick and then told to stay home.  It's a psychotic game being played now, just stop the crazy train.  Therefore, without the incentive to not take the days, I will take the days, simple enough.  The administration will have to stop harassing us for it.  

There is no political party to represent me now.

Blame your weak union (0.00 / 0)
If your union was strong and your membership was strong you could get support.

Sounds like you are blaming others for your weak union.


[ Parent ]
That's lame (0.00 / 0)
OK, enough union bashing. You want strikes because of sick days?

Not all ills of the world are due to unions with leadership you don't like.

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
I am a firm believer in unions (0.00 / 0)
But I also believe that they are misguided to fight for sick day payouts when they are not fighting for sick day use without their members being grilled or punished.

[ Parent ]
I agree, but... (0.00 / 0)
...I don't think that the end result of this policy change that you describe will be achieved unless other measures are taken to ensure that it is.

I think that it is nice to believe that employees will rise up and get what they deserve, but that never happened that often when organized labor was at its strongest and happens even less often now that they are at their weakest.  I don't foresee the workplace culture changing dramatically as a result of this policy change.  If anything, it is more likely to be yet another takeaway from the workforce.

The only way that you change the workplace culture is to expand the public employee workforce so that there is sufficient duplication, overlap, and redundancy to allow people to use their sick days when they are sick and vacation days to take vacations.  If anything, the opposite is happening throughout the public sector as public employees are expected to do more and be compensated less.

Rather than eliminate sick/vacation day payouts, limits should be placed on accumulations and payouts should be made on an annual basis for those unused days that exceed these limits.  Payouts could also be more manageable if they weren't paid out in lump sums, but instead were folded into pensions and paid out over time.  One way or another, workers should get the compensation that they were promised when they were hired.


"Jane, you ignorant slut..." (4.00 / 2)
I wish we could have a knock down, drag-out over this. But the sad fact is I agree with everything you wrote, huntsu.

People should stay at home when they are sick. Duh.

So we don't want to incentivize coming into work sick. But it's still a form of deferred compensation.

Seriously, folks - let's just pay public employees more, on the backs of the wealthy, and we can get rid of alternative compensation like this. Is there really anyone who thinks that's a bad idea?

Sorry huntsu and I are so lame at this personal-invective-fueled debate thing. We'll try to do better:



http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com


Yeah, like I said ... (0.00 / 0)
I agree that we need to do a better job compensating government workers.  Where JJ and I disagree is with Sweeney's methods, I think.

And I don't like his methods, either.  


[ Parent ]
Maybe you are to young Duke and hurt (4.00 / 1)
For many of us "veterans" we hold on to the sick days just in case...  We may come in even if we are sick because we know coworkers who have had heart attacks, strokes and cancer and are left without the ability to pay their mortgage.  It has happened in my district.  Even with the sick bank if you are out three, four five months it is devastating to a family.

Then negotiate long-term care ... (0.00 / 0)
Sick day payouts are a TERRIBLE answer to this problem, just as they are a terrible answer to retirement funds and compensation.

In the model where we bank sick days to prepare for long-term illness needs people who actually take sick days are punished if they have a heart-attack.

There are long-term disability and care insurance policies that are cheaper the more people sign up for them.  If they are purchased in your late 30s or early 40s they are very inexpensive for the rest of your life, and the payouts are excellent.

The unions should be negotiating long-term care policies and defined pension benefits instead of sick day payouts.  These are MUCH better ways to handle this issues of retirement and long-term illnesses than hoping going in to the office/ classroom while sick -- something that can lead to poor health and heart attacks.


[ Parent ]
Big Tough NJEA! HA! (1.00 / 1)
It appears from many of the posts that teachers are scared to take a legitimate day off when they are sick.

How sad.....

Maybe that guy Giordano can get off the TV and actually start doing some union work to defend his people.

...NJEA...how the mighty have fallen...  


I didn't know Chris Christie posted here (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
overtime costs (0.00 / 0)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Until there is a fair and legal plan to deal with overtime costs, we should reward employees for not calling out sick.

Not to talk down on office clerks, but when they call out sick, their work is usually waiting for them when they return. Their work is usually not life or death.

When cops/firefighters/EMTs call out sick, the odds are someone will get paid overtime to cover for the sick employee. Not only is the sick employee getting paid while not working, someone is getting paid time and a half to cover.

Employee A gets paid $300 per shift. Employee A calls out sick and still collects that $300. The shift is now short-handed and Employee B gets called in for overtime. Employee B is now making $450 to cover for Employee A, bringing the total cost to the employer to $750 for the one position on the shift.

Why not reward Employee A with $150 if he or she doesn't call out sick?

I do think that it's ridiculous that governments are stuck issuing six figure checks all at once. Even though governments should have been planning for this since the beginning of the employee's career, they should be able to pay it out over 5-10 years.

I also think it's ridiculous that employees are currently paid for their sick time at their rate of their salary when retiring. They should be paid at the rate they got paid when they earned the sick time (but I understand that's a payroll nightmare). I also believe in an overall cap. But employees should still be rewarded with SOMETHING.


Penny wise, pound foolish (0.00 / 0)
We'll pay people above their regular pay NOT to call in sick.

So all you have to do to make another $150 is cough a little at work.  Something seems wrong with that picture.

Or we could have a firefighter come in to work sick for the extra $150 weakened by the flu!  So when he is fighting the fire he collapses of dehydration and has to be rescued, the time lost costing you your entire home.

Or maybe that firefighter with the flu will come in for the extra $150 and infect the entire force, resulting in there being too few people on call.  Because there are too few people they can't go into a burning building but have to fight it from the outside -- and as a result someone suffering from smoke inhalation who could have been saved will be dead.


You realize... (0.00 / 0)
Your arguing against yourself here. I'm assuming you're for the current system which incentivizes NOT calling out sick. Because if you can keep your days until you retire, they're worth much more.

It's already documented that there have been cops/firefighters that apparently haven't used a vacation/sick day for almost their entire careers. Why do you think that is?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
That was all snark (0.00 / 0)
...

[ Parent ]
oops... (0.00 / 0)
I was wondering where you were going this that...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
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