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Why push-back against charters? Because they don't deliver the goods.

by: Marie Corfield

Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 08:12:13 AM EST



promoted by Rosi

Given the Star Ledger's overtly biased opinions about public education and teachers—most notably their New Year's day work of fiction and the firestorm it created in the Twitter/blogospheres (this link to the piece and my response also contains links to other opposing opinions including SOSNJ and NJParents1)—I do commend their Dec. 27 editorial, The push-back against charter schools, for trying to see both sides of this debate. But it does not go far enough, and ends up perpetuating some long-standing myths about these publicly funded but privately run schools.

Let’s start with the myth that they are a cure for failing schools. They are not. Two extensive studies done in the past two years, and partially funded by billionaire-turned-education-reformer Bill Gates—the CREDO at Stanford University study, and Gates’ own Center for Reinventing Public Education study released in November—conclude that the majority of these for-profit institutions do no better than their public school counterparts. A small number are better; many are worse. The latter study went so far as to say that the better ones “are not statistically significant.” So why is the state pushing them? Because they provide cheap alternatives to state funded education, while allowing wealthy investors to double their money in seven years and get a 37% tax break on their investment with little to no financial or academic accountability.

Myths continue, after the fold. 
Marie Corfield :: Why push-back against charters? Because they don't deliver the goods.

 The second myth is that charters impose little financial burden on cash-strapped districts. With school districts from Cape May to High Point still reeling from Christie’s almost $1 billion cut in aide in 2010, nothing could be further from the truth. Just ask the taxpayers of Teaneck who are breathing a collective sigh of relief now that a proposed K-12 statewide virtual charter school that stood to siphon $15 million from their budget has been scrapped. The fact is that every child who attends a charter takes 90% of their per pupil funding with them. Public schools’ fixed costs don’t decrease as students leave, but for many schools, the quality of education they provide surely will as class sizes increase and staff are cut. How does that improve our educational system as a whole?

The third and possibly most damaging myth is that charters offer “escape routes from the failing traditional schools.” Charter schools provide ‘choice.’ And ‘choice’ is very different than ‘access’. Every child, regardless of the baggage they carry, has access to their local, taxpayer-funded, public school. Not so with charters. If they hold lotteries, if they employ wait lists, if they do not provide special education or ESL services, if they expel students who are discipline problems, they do not provide universal access. If a parent does not have the time or wherewithal to maneuver the application process, their child does not gain access. This is taxation without representation in its simplest form. It’s a recipe for a two-tiered educational system with charters educating the best, the brightest and least expensive students, while ‘failing’ public schools continue in their self-fulfilling prophecy as they are left with the most challenging and/or learning-disabled, and therefore most expensive students, and fewer resources with which to teach. (Ironically, Jersey Jazzman posted about this disparity just this morning, and SOSNJ posted about the NJDOE's shady approval process.) Charters may accept these students at first, but study their attrition rates for the whole story.

Looking beyond the myths, choices and options, the truth is that unless the state faces the crushing effects of poverty, including hunger, unemployment, and lack of affordable health care on a child’s ability to learn, nothing will change. And it hasn’t, despite decades of state control over some of our poorest districts. We can’t help struggling children succeed by slashing education funding and turning the process over to for-profit companies that can cherry pick students to enhance their bottom line. But we can help them by legislators working together with educators to build on the tremendous educational infrastructure that makes New Jersey’s public schools many of the best in the nation, by including a holistic commitment to serve the needs of every child both inside and outside the classroom, and by putting those needs—not profits—first.
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Why push-back against charters? Because they don't deliver the goods. | 138 comments
You can't have it both ways... (0.00 / 0)

If growing popluations and increased class sizes put strains on school budgets, then when students leave, lower class sizes, and leave 10% of their money behind, it is not a zero sum game.

As I pointed out before, if you take your position to the logical end, the biggest districts with the most students would be the most efficient with lowest class sizes. And they are not.

The fact is that every child who attends a charter takes 90% of their per pupil funding with them. Public schools' fixed costs don't decrease as students leave, but for many schools, the quality of education they provide surely will as class sizes increase and staff are cut.

If students leave, how EXACTLY, do class sizes increase?

All my life I've been told that class sizes increase when the student population increases. Isn't that the case?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

I'll re-explain for you... (4.00 / 1)
With all due respect, Mr. Weber, please allow me to re-explain. When students leave, there is no corollary savings for the school district as most costs are fixed costs. So, when the funding follows them, districts are usually forced to lay of teachers, increasing class size.

So, if 70 students leave a district, spread across 30 classrooms, you'll find a student or two less in each class. Not a significant enough reduction in each class to simply eliminate a class. With reduced funding that followed those kids out, you now have to let go of a  few teachers and consolidate classes. End result, is fewer classes with higher student-to-teacher ratios.

Look at the towns with recently opened charter schools. Most were forced to either cut valuable programs or reduce staff.

[ Parent ]
No... (0.00 / 0)
the majority of costs are salaries and wages.

Fixed costs are facilities/utilities/taxes.

That's it. Look at your local budget.

Where does that charter school exist with 70 students with 30 unique classrooms?

Again. It works both ways, if the charter school picks off only 2 students from 30 unique classrooms, they would have to hire 30 unique teachers for 2 students each, which is an impossiblity.

When schools downsize I don't doubt staff and programs may be cut. But that should not ever lead to increased class sizes. That makes no logical sense.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Let's take an example... (4.00 / 1)
In East Brunswick, 50 students spread across 8 elementary schools, each with about 2 or 3 classes per grade. Those fifty students are from two grades. So, 25 students from the first grade (thats nearly one student less per classroom).

Those 25 students take roughly $250,000 out of those schools. That's roughly two and a half teachers' salaries.

In, EB, rather than lose two or three teachers, they cut programming instead.

(By the way, many of these kids were coming from families who never sent their kids to public school anyway. So the money follows the student, but there is no empty seat left behind as you seem to imply.)

[ Parent ]
The larger misunderstanding... (0.00 / 0)
Is the idea that each student in that district actually costs the same to educate.

My numbers are extremely rough, but Im just trying to put this into a realistic context for you.

Let's say the 25 students in my example above did not have any disabilities. There's now a higher concentration of children with  disabilities, ESL, etc, with a smaller overall budget with which to pay for these services.

[ Parent ]
Here's the thing... (0.00 / 0)
Any school district with expensive autism or special needs programs didn't start them with the arrival of the first student.

You will find the first move was to send those special needs students to a school with those programs until the time at which the district has enough demand where it made economic sense to add them.

The same will happen with charters, but they have to be allowed to start somewhere.

Finally, they can acutally HELP this issue if/when specialized schools are proposed.
Let's suppose that there was a charter DESIGNED for ESL students, where all the staff was bilingual. It's in Bound Brook, and everyone who works there can speak fluent Spanish and English. It would essentially take all those ESL students from the district drastically lowering the cost per pupil amount, right?

Would you support that school?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
No, I would not support that type of school... (4.00 / 1)
In that it promotes segregation.
Please see the results of such scenarios in Minnesota:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...
[ Parent ]
Here's the REAL thing (0.00 / 0)
Your scenario has nothing to do with the purpose of charter schools. Charter schools were not conceived as a "choice" mechanism - both the letter and spirit of NJ's original charter law indicate that charter schools are to server as a laboratory for growing and enhancing our public schools. Somewhere along the way, self-interested parties, opportunists and wannabe freeloaders recognized opportunity in the charter system - but does that make it right?

Where is the accountability for these charters? How many of them have distilled fabulous new techniques and then brought them to the public schools they are supposed to support? The only charters that have super impressive achievement records are the ones with extended school years, extended school years, and carefully groomed populations where the lowest performers are "counseled out." You want to do that stuff in public schools? Fine. Start a movement and bring the interested parties to the table and broker a deal.

In the mean time, you can stop comparing apples and Ford Festivas.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Didn't one close in Trenton... (0.00 / 0)
last year? Sounds like they were held 'accountable'.

The choice mechanism is what drives innovation.

Again, by definition, the charter can't open if they do not have the demand. To generate the demand they have to offer some difference between the traditional public school, no?



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Your missing my point... (0.00 / 0)
My point would be there is no charter school with just 50 students, 25 in each grade, is there? I don't think the state approves those populations. Do they?

It's as simple as the following -

If the charter takes enough children to ADD a teacher, then the district has lost enough students to LOSE a teacher.

It can be no other way, can it?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
I just gave you a scenario where it can... (0.00 / 0)
Haktikva actually has roughly 75 students from East Brunswick in grades K-2. As I explained 25 kids per grade, minus the number who were never going to the public schools (pulled from 8 different elementary schools in town). Tell me how that nearly 1 million dollar check the town had to cut the charter school would only require us to lay off three teachers.
[ Parent ]
Again... (0.00 / 0)
I understand that at first there may be no economies of scale. But even in East Brunswick's case, the charter can grow to a point where it has pulled enough population to make significant reductions in cost in the district. Ie. When 75 kids move to the district, across 8 schools, class sizes increase as well. It's only when certain milestones are reached that addtionall classes and/or teachers are added.

But again, I'll point to the fact that followed to its logical end, the largest districts would be the most efficient. They're not.

What I believe is that schools aren't familiar with downsizing, since this is probably the first time in history public schools may experience significant drops in population. And they are probably not prepared for the best way to accomplish this.

Finally, let me say that I do feel for you. As a former resident, I know East Brunswick has an excellent public school system. My support for charters comes from the conditions found in Abbot districts.

I would be on board with Bertin's solutions here. If you have a non Abbot, successful district, maybe they should change the ratio of funding from 90%/10% to more of a 50%/50% split. But I do think charters have a place.  

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
students do not cost the same to educate (0.00 / 0)
The utopia you are describing would require the cost to educate each student to be similar, and it is NOT. Unless Hatikva is required to educate the same percentage of more-expensive-to-educate-students, your "economies of scale" will never happen. Furthermore, it has not happened in places where a large potion of charters have existed for a decade and, in some cases, two decades.
[ Parent ]
They do not... (0.00 / 0)
That's true. I'll assume then you are dead against magnet schools skimming students as well. Is that the case?

But it's also true that any and all students have the same opportunity (through lottery) here in NJ (not sure of other places) to attend. Charters cannot require admissions testing (as magnets do) and must take all comers.

High cost students could be incentivized to apply.

Again, economies of scale are limited, the largest districts in NJ are by no means the most efficient with the smallest class sizes. If you are attempting to argue that districts with the most amount of students are healthiest, it has been disproven, right here in NJ.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Come on, Mr. Weber, (0.00 / 0)
I can see that you are bright, so you know class size is not the only factor impacting student outcomes. However, class size does matter.

I'm not sure why you keep asking about magnet schools, but my initial thoughts are that they do a much better job of including students from a cross-section of socio-economic backgrounds. They are also in most cases overseen by board members accountable to the sending districts and voters. Also, public money is not being used to turn a profit in the private sector. I'm open to a larger discussion on magnet schools, but it hardy changes what we are experiencing due to our state's outdated charter school laws.

Preferably, I'd like to see better options, like Interdistrict School Choice enhanced and expanded.

[ Parent ]
Yes, there is a clear distinction (0.00 / 0)
between magnet and charter schools.  I'm not saying I'm generally in favor of magnet schools, but there's a big difference between the two.
[ Parent ]
All I am saying... (0.00 / 0)
is that one cannot simulatenously use the argument that charters 'skim' and damage the students left behind and tolerate magnet schools.

I like magnet schools, I think they're a great idea.

Let me ask, what do you think is different about 75 students leaving East Brunsick schools, taking 90% of their funding with them, and choosing a another school through the Interdistrict School Choice program vs leaving and moving to a charter.

The district still loses the same amount of money, the same dynamic exists with class sizes. What then, is the difference?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Motivated Bias (0.00 / 0)
Weber, this is what is called motivated bias and no amount of logic will prevail. There will always be a distinction without a difference or some other rationalization. Bottom line, they like things just the way they are.
[ Parent ]
Wrong (0.00 / 0)
Magnet schools are not exclusively based on aptitude or achievement record - they can be based on coursework concentration. For example, let's say you have a large urban school system with 6 high schools. They can be organized via magnet system - an advanced academic school, a technology-focused school, a school focused on healthcare industry, a school focused on fine/performing arts, a general studies school.

C'mon, man. Use your imagination.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Right... (0.00 / 0)
but if your argument is that charters have a different population because they have students whose parents that cared enough to push them to the charter... the same applies to magnets.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai
[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
Not if all available options are specialized like in my example. Additionally, magnets are fed by other public schools at lower grades in the same system, with per-pupil funds staying in place. Again, your comparison is shaky at best.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Yes, they do (0.00 / 0)
Mr. Weber, With all due respect, exactly what you are saying can't be, exists in East Brunswick today.  The numbers provided by kellypage are just about spot on and here is what has happened:  Enrollment at Hatikvah is around 100 students total for 4 grades, almost half of which attend the full day kindergarten program.  And many of the students are not from East Brunswick.  Last time I saw any numbers, third grade at Hatikvah has fewer than 20 children enrolled.  And the state approved the final charter of this school despite the fact that the school had not met the  numbers that were stipulated in the conditions for granting final  charter.  All if this resulted in a law suit, recently decided -- not in the favor of the BoE.  

The 8 elementary schools across the district have lost 15 to 20 children from each grade of first and second (fewer in third).  That is almost a full class size -- except these children pulled from 8 schools, not one.  So, in the instance of my children's elementary school, when faced with smaller enrollment and fewer dollars to spend, there are now only 3 classes of first graders and 3 classes of second graders - each with an enrollment of 24 to 26 children -- rather than 4 classes with fewer students.  To save money we did what we do not want to do - increase class size.  

The irony is, and this is an aside, that the Hatikvah school has larger class sizes in kindergarten than we do at the traditional elementary schools -- because they offer full day kindergarten.  

But the state is doing exactly that which you seem to think they would not do - which is one significant reason that the decision to open a school should be returned to the community which will support it and send children to it.  

 

[ Parent ]
Also... (0.00 / 0)
It's a recipe for a two-tiered educational system with charters educating the best, the brightest and least expensive students, while 'failing' public schools continue in their self-fulfilling prophecy as they are left with the most challenging and/or learning-disabled, and therefore most expensive students, and fewer resources with which to teach.

So... no magnet schools? They're no good either?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

a case study (4.00 / 1)
My daughter just started kindergarten today at the Hebrew immersion charter school in East Brunswick, because a spot opened up in their all-day kindergarten program.  Prior to this, she was in Dunellen's $300/month Pre-K program, because the cutoff date for kindergarten in Dunellen is October 1 (with no exceptions for students like my daughter who were born on October 18 and are ready for kindergarten) and the cutoff date in East Brunswick is October 31.

Should I have continued to pay Dunellen $300 a month for a pre-K education when I could get my daughter a kindergarten education for free?  Yes, my decision will undoubtedly cost Dunellen some money as they will also be required to reimburse my family for transportation expenses.

But in the end, the problem here is not charter schools (with the  exception of for-profit charter school incubators).  The problem is how charter schools are funded.  Instead of advocating against them conceptually or giving localities the right to block them, public education advocates should be fighting for a new public education paradigm that does the following:

1) fully funds public education (including but not limited to special education) solely with state (and possibly federal) income tax dollars

2) ensures that public education spending is as efficient as possible, including but not limited to the elimination of local school districts and their replacement with county school districts

3) provides choices to families, including but not limited to countywide school choice initiatives and public charter schools that serve entire counties rather than just a few towns

4) negotiates reforms to the current tenure system that gives both schools and teachers more flexibility (i.e. if schools really want to weaken tenure protections to make it easier to fire less effective teachers, they have to be willing to allow more effective teachers to retain their tenure if they need/want to move to another part of the state)

I don't see how a war on public charter schools will in the end do anything tangible to improve traditional public schools.  In my opinion, our best chance to improve traditional public schools is to pursue initiatives that benefit both them and public charter schools and enable them to cooperate rather than compete.

This is one of the major issues I see with boutique charter schools (especially the ones with no community support) (0.00 / 0)
Cut-off dates will always leave one child the youngest in class and another the oldest in class. I'm not judging your decision to send your child to Hatikva, but generally your example describes one of the worst scenarios involving boutique charter schools: A parent thinks their child is the exception to the rule and should have a specific, tailored education, regardless of whether it is the best usage of tax dollars for all of the children in that district. How many of these boutique charter schools were opened for that exact purpose? Sure one student benefits, but at the expense of another (or often times many). In the end, if a charter school is actually good for the community (some may be), then they should pass a basic test of a local vote. Give voters the ability to decide if this is what they want in their community.

You live in Dunellen. You vote in Dunellen. You get to decide along with your neighbors how your tax dollars are spent. (Well, unless a charter school is forced upon your town, that is). Why not invest in bringing full-time K to your town?

To your last point: When you look at State's where the funding of charter schools is similar to what you are advocating, what are the outcomes that you see? Oh, wait, there is no other State where charter schools are forced upon communities that pay for them by the sole authority of the DOE.

[ Parent ]
The school's cutoff dates... (0.00 / 0)
...are the same as the home district.  The reason why my daughter was on the waiting list and not in the school in the first place is because we live in Dunellen and not East Brunswick.  The thing about Dunellen is that they do not offer any means by which a student who misses the cutoff date can be admitted into kindergarten.  I have spoken to parents in other districts and every one of them has mentioned how their district offers exceptions through assessments, testing, or other means to determine if a student who misses the cutoff date is ready for kindergarten or not.

The really annoying thing about Dunellen is that there were numerous students in the district's two-day a week program for 3 year-olds and 4 year-olds that my daughter was in last year who were definitely not ready for kindergarten, but were able to be enrolled simply because they made the cutoff date.  The issue was never about half-day kindergarten versus full-day kindergarten as Dunellen offers full-day kindergarten.  The issue was my daughter being stuck in Pre-K rather than being able to start kindergarten.

I am not aware of any state that funds charter schools as I have proposed.  Are you?  My proposal is based on the logic of the situation that we are in as it is unlikely that the charter school law is going to be struck down and it is unfair that districts have to give local property tax dollars to charter schools, so the only solution is to change how charter schools are funded, which should be part of a larger conversation to change how public education is funded.

Also, there is a difference between boutique charter schools as you describe them and the charter schools that are conceived by the for-profit charter school incubators.  A boutique charter school may not have the support of the entire community, but they are generally conceived by a segment of the community to satisfy a need that traditional public schools are not currently satisfying.  As I have said before, I do not believe that the solution to this problem is to give the majority the ability to block the efforts of this minority, but simply to change the funding paradigm so that the latter is not a burden on the former.

If it were possible to fund all public education with state (and possibly federal) income tax dollars, would you be opposed to a funding model whereby a public charter school would receive 50% of a traditional public school's per student funding, the traditional public school would retain 25% of its per student funding, and 25% of its per student funding is set aside to fund cooperative programming between the public charter school and the traditional public school.

Under this funding model, the charter school would be eligible for a loan from the federal government for the remaining 50% that would have to be repaid in full by the last day of the school year in order to be allowed to open their doors the following school year.  Loans would be repaid with tax-creditable contributions from private sources.

[ Parent ]
Boutique Schools (0.00 / 0)
In East Brunswick, which seems to serve as the perfect example for us, the Hatikvah school is filling the desire of some parents for free full day kindergarten - it is the only grade that is consistently filled and even then not with children only from EB, and a handful of other families who chose it for the small size or Hebrew immersion - I do not know.  But I do not see how it is right for the majority to fund this school without a say in it.  If we fund every boutique school, not only do we de-fund the traditional public schools but we create a new kind of segregation that makes me very uncomfortable (read the article on the SOSnj facebook page about the KKKs support for charter schools for exactly this reason).
[ Parent ]
This is why... (0.00 / 0)
...both public charter schools and traditional public schools should be funded with state (and possibly federal) income tax dollars and not local property tax dollars and why local school districts should be replaced with county school districts.

Blocking charter schools only serves to impede innovation and progress and is in the spirit of the southern Governors who stood in front of the schoolhouse doors trying to prevent the integration of their schools.  Back then, the majority of the people in these communities did not want their schools to be integrated and if they were allowed to vote to approve integration or reject it, they would have rejected it each and every time.  The same is true for charter schools.

[ Parent ]
Wow (0.00 / 0)
Comparing opposition to charter schools to George Wallace?  To segregation?  Parents wanting to protecting the funding level of their public schools to parents wanting to keep students out of the schools because of their color?

You are truly an idiot.

[ Parent ]
I am not... (0.00 / 0)
...calling charter school opponents racists, but there is the same kind of narrow-minded parochialism at work in both situations.  The only difference is the absence of racism versus the presence of racism.

As I have said before, charter school opponents would be better served if they allied themselves with chater school proponents and advocated for a broader change in how public education is funded instead of just focusing on how charter schools and the current funding paradigm hurts their local schools.

Once again, you choose to insult and make an enemy out of someone with whom you disagree even though we agree on more than we disagree.  That is not a good way to build support for your issues of concern.

[ Parent ]
But once again (0.00 / 0)
You speak from a point of, and forgive me, ignorance.  For example, SOSnj has for months, reached out to and tried to work with charter school proponents in order to work together towards solutions in the best interest of education in this state.  These attempts fall on deaf ears, and Charter School Association members continue to call for fewer regulations regarding transparency and accountability rather than more.  They characterize SOSnj as anti-charter which it is not.  The legislation that passed the Assembly in June with bipartisan support is common sense legislation to ensure that these schools use tax payer money well, account for that money and are held to high standards of academic achievement.  Please, before you chose to characterize people working hard on this issue, take the time to know what is being done.  

[ Parent ]
You brought up the (insulting) example (0.00 / 0)
And then complain when you get called out on it.


The only difference is the absence of racism versus the presence of racism.

Uh . . . then what was the point of the example?

there is the same kind of narrow-minded parochialism at work in both situations.

Since when is wanting to assure that your district does not suffer a cut in funding "narrow-minded parochialism"?

[ Parent ]
The solution to the problem... (0.00 / 0)
...that has been proposed is narrow-minded and parochial.  A better alternative is a broader and deeper solution to the larger problem of how public education is funded.

If you give local voters the ability to approve or reject charter schools, they will reject all charter schools.  If you gave local voters the ability to approve or reject integration, they would have rejected integration at every opportunity.  That is the parallel.  The only difference between them is that the former is based on fiscal concerns and the latter is based on racism.

Obviously, that is a big difference, especially if a charter school opponent is not racist, but that doesn't change the fact that their fiscal concerns could be better addressed by reforming how public schools are funded than by preventing charter schools from being created.

[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)

If you give local voters the ability to approve or reject charter schools, they will reject all charter schools.  If you gave local voters the ability to approve or reject integration, they would have rejected integration at every opportunity.  That is the parallel.  The only difference between them is that the former is based on fiscal concerns and the latter is based on racism.

So, voting to deny someone an equal education based on race is the same as voting to prevent the defunding of public schools?  In what universe?

There is no need for charter schools.  It is just backdoor privatization.  Their rationale was that "failing" school districts needed an alternative.  Now, apparently, that rationale is out the window.  Because the real rationale is the weakening, if not outright destruction, of public education.

[ Parent ]
Destroying Public Education? (0.00 / 0)
"the core of Cerf's plan was 'portfolio management.' As with the initiative to break up high schools into smaller units, and the push for more charter schools, the entire school system would become a 'portfolio' of individually manged schools, with the central office empowering principals as long as they produced satisfactory results" - CLASS WARFARE, Steven Brill

That doesn't sound like the outright destruction of public education to me.

[ Parent ]
There may not be a need... (0.00 / 0)
...for charter schools in districts like East Brunswick, but that doesn't mean that they should not be able to exist.  Once again, the problem is how they are funded and the solution to that problem should be part of a larger effort to reform how public education is funded.
[ Parent ]
imagine the cost (0.00 / 0)
What you are describing sounds a lot  like Tennessee and their school systems are a nightmare and have only caused a proliferation of private schools. In your high density,  high dollar neighborhoods parents have managed to buy enough influence to get their own magnet schools so they don't have to pay private tuitions.

I also cannot begin to imagine what the transportation costs would be to open up all of the schools in a county to interdistrict enrollment. It would also be a logistical nightmare and I find it hard to believe under any circumstances that opening more schools could ever possibly reduce costs.  That makes no sense.

Another point, I know quite a few people who spent a lot of money in NJ to make sure that their children go to the best school districts. These people are willing to spend more in taxes to maintain the needs of these schools and they're not going to be very open to "outsiders." Nobody likes to admit it, but this is largely the driving force behind home values here. That being the case, nobody that spent insane money for their home will want to risk devaluation from countywide interdistricting. Currently, schools have the right to take on out of district students as long as they pay the going tuition. Sometimes they can talk their home district into paying part or all of the cost. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[ Parent ]
I would not... (0.00 / 0)
...open up an entire county to interdistrict enrollment.  From K-6, I would enroll everyone into their local elementary schools and starting at grade 7, higher performing students in the lower performing schools would have the opportunity to move to higher performing schools and lower performing students in higher performing schools could be transferred to lower performing schools.

If all public education is funded with state (and possibly federal) income tax dollars, a determination would be made as to how much will be spent per student and the money will follow the students wherever they go.  Also, public charter schools would have less of a negative fiscal impact on traditional public schools, because they would be able to receive students from an entire county rather than a single school district or several districts.

This will not reduce the quality of higher performing schools and at the same time will not reduce the amount of money going to lower performing schools, because any higher performing students who transfer out will be replaced with lower performing students from higher performing schools.  Hopefully, this system would inspire students in all schools to work harder to either get into or stay in better schools and also force parents to be more engaged in the education of their children.

Yes, this system would present some logistical challenges and additional transportation expenses, but where there would be tremendous savings would be in the reduction of administrators (superintendents, assistant superintendents, business managers, and assistant business managers) and support staff and lower prices on the purchasing of goods and services due to increased economies of scale.  It is possible that this system would require some limitations on the provision of transportation and/or the reimbursement of personal transportation expenses to those families who exhibit a need for these reimbursements and services.

[ Parent ]
That way madness lies (4.00 / 4)
Take a step back for a moment. Do you honestly think you're the first person who's had to deal with the cutoff date problem? Do we really need to open new schools for that? Do we need to modify the entire public education system for relatively minor special needs like yours and mine? (I was in exactly the same situation - a daughter with an October birthday missed the cutoff, and when she started school a year later, she tested at a 4th grade reading level and was skipped to first grade.)

What would happen if we responded to every need in this way? A neighborhood complains the nearest firehouse is too far away, creating slow response times; we create charter fire houses and divert public funds to them. A group complains that police officers aren't bilingual; we create charter police precincts and divert more funds. The needs may be real and valid, but the response would undermine the entire  institution and harm the general public.

If we have problems with public schools, let's fix the public schools, not undermine them and privatize education.

[ Parent ]
How about hospitals... (0.00 / 0)
why do you get to choose? Aren't they all good? Why aren't you limited (as with schools) by your residency?

And colleges? Why is there more than (1) public university in NJ. Why do we need choice there?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Highlights the distinction between Choice and Access (0.00 / 0)
Your comparison strengthens Ms. Corfield's point that there is a difference between choice and  access. Yes, you can choose hospitals and universities in a free market (even the ones that receive public aid), but not everyone can afford access to them. In NJ every child is entitled to a K-12 education. You are not entitled to all medical treatments or a college education (unfortunately).

While I enjoy these conceptual, ideological arguments you are provoking, I think we could be more helpful to each other and our State by teaching each other  and our neighbors about the realities of our current and proposed models.

It seems you are more interested in trying to catch me in some sort of hypothetical inconsistency, than talking about the pros and cons of different ideas about how to improve our system.

[ Parent ]
I'm trying to provoke... (0.00 / 0)
the thought that you will see very little areas in our society that do not allow choices/market forces to dictate capital flows, with good reason and I see no reason why education can't be one of them.

But since you brought it up, what is the difference in impact on the sending district between losing students to the interdistrict choice program vs. a charter?

PS. Access denied because parents can't navigate the application process is a straw man argument. Are the applications more difficult than a tax return? Doesn't everyone figure that out?



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
BINGO (0.00 / 0)
Lost in the marrasse of these dozens of comments is the simple fact that growing the charter school movement will not solve the problem which sit at the root of this problem - poverty. Additionally, there is substantial evidence to suggest that the expansion of the charter model will have a negative - not positive - impact on the general quality of NJ and American education. No 90-comment thread full of rhetorical kung-fu can change that.

Not to mention, as I stated elsewhere - charter schools were not conceived as a mechanism of "choice" and are now often little more than a tax credit bonanza for venture capitalists.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Tax Credit? (0.00 / 0)
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is in desperate need of a tax credit? Who knew.
[ Parent ]
Uh (0.00 / 0)
A foundation and a venture capitalist are different things. The Gates foundation is an example of wealthy elites thinking that they can "fix" the world with or without the necessary expertise. The VCs are the ones looking to milk loopholes like the New Markets Tax Credit.

I notice that you have noting to say re: evidence on efficacy of charter schools.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Evidence on Efficacy (0.00 / 0)
KIPP and KIPP NOW the New Orleans school system, post Katrina; "by 2010, successful charter schools would be educating 60 percent of New Orleans's children, and they and most of the other 'traditional' schools were performing far beyond the old schools failure rates, so much so that New Orleans had arguably become one of the nation's best urban school systems"

New Visions for Public Schools, NYC; while not a charter in the traditional sense it is largely funded by donations from the financial community (I guess that's the greedy VC's) chaired by Caroline Kennedy

KIPP NY where students thrive and outperform the city's averages on all proficiency scores and blow completely past the performance of children in similarly challenged communities

Harlem Success Academy II, NYC

Upper West Side Success, NYC

and Mr. Lefkovic seems pretty happy.

But I'm sure your going to tell me these are all anecdotal and have no empirical backing so why have I wasted the last hour of my life anyway.

[ Parent ]
Cool (0.00 / 0)
Your examples are only anecdotes because the way you seem to understand them indicates you're missing crital details that, when noted, cast serious doubt on your comparisons and relative definition of efficacy. KIPPs, HCZ schools etc - these are schools with longer school days, longer school years, the ability to "counsel out" low performers, the ability to not accept students for various reasons, who typically serve disproportionately low if not nonexistent populations of students from populations like ELL, Special Education, etc. Holding these schools up against public school counterparts and implying such flat "success" is intellectually dishonest. If you support the rights of workers to organize, then perhaps you should push for these new terms to be negotiated into the contracts of public school teachers in your town. Unless, of course, you are it concerned with the sustainability issues surrounding this approach, in which case perhaps you should find a nice Libertarian blog to read.

Perhaps no example you raise better demonstrates your lack of information on this subject than New Oleans - widely understood to be a beachhead of Ed reform/privateer efforts - where they are running a PR game against the clock, and when the clock runs out, no one knows what will happen. The basics can be found here, but for you to tout NO as a success model says so much about what parts of the picture you are missing.

http://ednotesonline.blogspot....

When you are done responding substantively to these points, would you care to answer my point from downthread, where I ask you if we should hold doctors accountable for poverty?


"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
You bring up an excellent point... (0.00 / 0)
Yes, charter do things differently.

But that's the point. Bertin has brough up the point of 'institutional memory' before...

Recently the super in (Paterson, I believe) had that battle for the longer day.... and had his head handed to him.

The point would be it's hard to gain support for these initiatives until it's proven they work, and charters can make that case.
 

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
But they cannot (0.00 / 0)
They cannot make that case, because you are 1) still comparing unlike things, and 2) not accounting for all the students for who those charters do NOT work. Until said charters accomodate the exact same needs populations, there is no reasonable way to say that charters are working while publics are not. Charters can NOT make this case, which you assert they can.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
aannnddd.. (0.00 / 0)
Here is some info on vouchers in New Orleans.. guess what?

The RSD schools significantly outperformed the voucher schools, despite the requirement that RSD schools must enroll and include in their testing results students with disabilities, who account for 10% of their enrollment. The schools participating in the voucher program are exempt from IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).

http://educatenow.net/2011/07/...

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
but they are not going away (0.00 / 0)
So if we can agree on this, shouldn't we work to try to fix what is wrong with them and do what is necessary to make them what they are supposed to be?  I think that has a much better chance of succeeding than what most charter school opponents are doing, which is pissing in the wind.
[ Parent ]
but they are not going away (0.00 / 0)
So if we can agree on this, shouldn't we work to try to fix what is wrong with them and do what is necessary to make them what they are supposed to be?  I think that has a much better chance of succeeding than what most charter school opponents are doing, which is pissing in the wind.
[ Parent ]
There's a difference (0.00 / 0)
There's a difference between the best way to provide what is a universal right provided through public funding (K-12 education, police and fire protection, military, etc) and the best way to provide other services (we could debate whether higher education and health care should be universal, but that's a separate issue).

Don't take my word for it; look at history. The privatization of taxpayer-funded functions like prisons and the military resulted in increased corruption and worse service. It led to powerful lobbies from the private sector getting legislation passed to line their pockets rather than serve the public good. Charters, vouchers, and other forms of privatization are opening the same doors in education.

Competition may make some schools better, but it will certainly not make most of them better. It could, however, make most of them profit centers, and that would be a disaster for the ideal of quality universal public education.

[ Parent ]
I would agree you... (0.00 / 0)
but my complaint would be that the opposition is not working on removing the profit motive.

(which would be easy, in my view, amend the law to make the charters operate as non-profits, like colleges)

They bring up the profit motive as a reason to scrap the whole idea.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
You think that's so simple? (0.00 / 0)
Once you open the door to private organizations receiving tax dollars to educate children, you will find it nearly impossible to keep the profit motive out. Look at the example of Imagine Schools, the scandal-ridden charter operator that considered itself a non-profit, but couldn't seem to get the IRS to agree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04...
[ Parent ]
Ok. (0.00 / 0)
if they were non-profits you would support them?

It's not really the profit motive that's your concern, is it?
(which is my point anyway)

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Ok, you got me (0.00 / 0)
You're right. My main concern is that there is no good reason to open schools using public money outside the public school system. You caught me. Profit is only one ENORMOUS part of the the problem. Others include lack of transparency, lack of local control, not serving all students equally, resegregation, kowtowing to the rabid anti-gummint union-haters....etc.
[ Parent ]
I didn't start the school (0.00 / 0)
The school was conceived and started well before my wife and I even had to deal with our problem.  But it does solve this problem for us, so I don't feel bad that it will cost Dunellen some money, especially since they chose to not make any exceptions despite the fact that many other districts do.

Our cutoff date issue has nothing to do with why the people who started Hatikvah did so and in addition to satisfying what the parents who choose to send their kids there want for their children, it enabled my wife and I to send our daughter to kindergarten instead of having to keep her in pre-K.

What undermines public education more than anything is its outdated funding paradigm.  Charter schools would not be the boogeyman that you and others make them if all public schools were funded with income tax dollars instead of property tax dollars and if local school districts were replaced with county school districts.  

[ Parent ]
Competition (0.00 / 0)
I believe you have struck on a very important problem, although I respectfully disagree about the solution (funding schools with income tax, but that is for another time).  The current system which allows the DoE to approve charter schools and force a community to host and pay for that school creates a system of competition - and competition for scarce resources right now (and that is rarely a good fight).  So, all the hope that charter schools might innovate, encourage innovation, etc. is lost in the fight over money which has set the charter school against the traditional public schools from the get go.  Allowing the local community to approve (or not) a charter school is entirely consistent with what happens now with respect to the schools in a district - we vote to open a new one, to bond out for renovations, etc.  And the community gets very involved.  We do not need to change the entire funding mechanism for public education to fix this.  There is an easy fix in form of legislation that would remedy this -- and it has bipartisan support.  It should be made law.  

[ Parent ]
I'll believe that... (0.00 / 0)
...when I see it.  Charter schools have bipartisan support as well and they are here to stay.  The only way to win this battle is to redefine victory.
[ Parent ]
Charters and Segregation (0.00 / 0)
It seems we come to another critical issue - that of segregation and charter schools.  It is quite clear, both in the demographic materials available (see Bruce Baker's work) and other materials (see the KKKs support of charters) that charter schools, as they are currently designed (with the current lottery system, and the way they are approved) promotes segregation - both in terms of cultural groups (boutique schools publicly funding what has been traditionally left to the private sector) economics and learning levels.  The issue is not being for or against charter schools, and people should not mischaracterize my comments as such.  The issue is the approval and operational processes that fly in the face of the stated goals at the inception of charter school law in this state.  

I find it hard to swallow that the charter school in East Brunswick offers more of the creative innovation than the Blue Ribbon public school where my children are learning.  Before we embrace the corporate line (and accept their large investments into charter schools) we ought to look at it with a critical eye and make sure they are carrying through on their promises.  

Finally, again Hatikvah provides the perfect example of special interest money creating a special interest school on the public dime.   The center for Hebrew Charters (I may have their name wrong) is the brain child of Michael Steinhardt whose explicit purpose in the creation of this center is to encourage Jewish families to receive Jewish education.  While the vision has been modified to fit the limitations of what public dollars will fund, the intent is clear.  They have simply found a way to market it in the current environment of education reform. Is public tax money going to now pay for every cultural group that wants their own school?  What happens to public education then?  

[ Parent ]
Have you visited the school? (0.00 / 0)
When I dropped my daughter off at school this morning for the first time, I was able to see the demographic makeup of the school.  I expected to see a lot of kipas and long skirts, but what I saw was a melting pot of diversity that is the equal of if not greater than what currently makes up East Brunswick and the surrounding area.  You can think what you want about this school, but until you visit it and meet its children, I think that your perspective will continue to be limited to its fiscal impact on the East Brunswick public schools, which I understand, but there are solutions to that problem that are better than simply trying to make Hatikvah go away, which I don't expect to happen anytime soon.

I have my issues with the lottery system as well.  I placed my daughter in their first lottery for this school year and after all of the spots were filled by East Brunswick children, she wound up being 6th on the waiting list.  However, they held one or two more lotteries after that and when more East Brunswick children were added, she dropped down to 23rd on the list.  The fact that she was able to miraculously claim a spot under these circumstances halfway through the year was a testament to other families being unwilling to pull their children out of whatever educational system that they had placed their children into at the beginning of the year and my wife and I preferring Hatikvah's kindergarten program to Dunellen's $300/month pre-K program.

But the problem that we faced with Hatikvah once again has more to do with the limitations of the charter school law that prevent a charter school from serving an entire county equally than the charter school itself.  This is also a problem with public education as a whole and why we should do away with local school districts and replace them with county school districts.

[ Parent ]
gee, thanks, Bertin... (0.00 / 0)
For giving us such a scientific breakdown of the demographics in East Brunswick. Your comparison after looking around the school a few times is very reassuring. Statistically, you understand though that most charters do not reflect the make-up of the host district, right? Let me ask, in light of your observations, do you support legislation that has passed through the assembly requiring more accountability and transparency by charter schools, and legislation that would require charter schools to more accurately reflect the make-up of the host district, possibly through an opt-out program, rather than opting into a lottery?
[ Parent ]
accountability and transparency (0.00 / 0)
I have no problem with accountability and transparency, so if the legislature believes that charter schools are not sufficiently accountable and transparent and wants to pass legislation making them moreso, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

How accountable and transparent are traditional public schools?  Charter schools should be no more and no less accountable and transparent.  However, as long as the primary assessment methodololgy utilized by both is standardized testing, I don't think that we will ever have a good sense about how good or bad either truly are.

How would an opt-out program work if there are more prospective students than spaces in the school?  Are you saying that if a school has 100 spaces and the community is 20% Asian-American, 20% African-American, 20% Hispanic-American, and 40% Caucasian-American that 20 spaces must be set aside for AsAs, 20 spaces for AAs, 20 spaces for HAs, and 40 spaces for CAs?  I don't have a problem with that per se.  It would require separate lotteries for every racial group.

However, what happens if there are 50 AsA applicants, 10 AA applicants, 10 HA applicants, and 200 CA applicants?  Can the school fill those unfilled set asides through a second, racially blind lottery?  Do they have to prove that they have actively recruited in the AA and HA communities?  Or will they just have to shut down because of an insufficient response from these communities?  Is the intent of legislation like the ones you have mentioned as well as the one requiring community approval intended to make charter schools better or just to make it impossible for them to exist at all?

With the exception of for-profit charter school incubators, charter schools are not the problem.  How they are funded is the problem and that problem can be solved by changing how public education as a whole is funded and organized.  We need to stop funding public education with regressive local property taxes and start funding public education solely with progressive state (and possibly federal) income taxes.  We need to eliminate local school districts and replace them with county school districts.  We need to stop using standardized testing to assess learning and teaching and start using solely observational methodologies to assess learning and teaching.  If we can do these three things, it will improve public education dramatically and if we can figure out how to eliminate poverty in our lifetime, that will do more than anything.

[ Parent ]
Enlighten me... (0.00 / 0)
What would you like to see happen with "for-profit incubators?" And, what are your feelings about the re-segregation via charter schools (most recently documented in Minnesota)? How would you like to address the problem of stealth advertising by charter schools who only want kids from the rich side of town to enroll? Also, how do you propose we deal with charter schools counseling out students who do not perform as well, to boost their scores? How do we address the impact of higher concentrations of harder to educate students left behind in traditional schools?

You seem to keep saying its all about the money:
"

But in the end, the problem here is not charter schools (with the  exception of for-profit charter school incubators).  The problem is how charter schools are funded.

How does changing the burden of payment to the State instead of the local school budget address this small sample of unaddressed problems with our state's charter school laws?

[ Parent ]
Wow... (0.00 / 0)
you're all over the map here.

Again, public schools suffer from the same problems. I'd be willing to bet public schools in Mendam and Bernardsville have populations that are unbelievably non minority and wealthly. It's even worse because you have to live there (which no one can afford) to get into the system. You can bet people for the status quo hold those districts up as the gold standard of public school achievement.

That's ok with you, however, you want to crusade against a charter school which provides exponentially more access to minority/economically challenged students?

The difference in state funding vs. local is two fold. First, Bertin advocates funding education (and the NJEA is on board with this as well) through income taxes instead of property taxes (which are highly regressive). Second, the costs of charters would be spread across a greater base of taxpayers... and there would be no disadvantage to having the charter in your town as opposed to the next one over.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Affordable housing (0.00 / 0)
" I'd be willing to bet public schools in Mendam and Bernardsville have populations that are unbelievably non minority and wealthly. It's even worse because you have to live there (which no one can afford) to get into the system."

Socioeconomic diversity in public schools is a much more reliable route to better education than charter schools, yet what should be a major factor in the education debate - affordable housing - is totally absent. Funny thing, isn't it, that the foundations founded by the Gates, Waltons and Kochs of the world are not throwing wads of cash at the affordable-housing lobby. I wonder why?

[ Parent ]
Actually, Mr. Weber, check the research first... (0.00 / 0)
You just keep throwing assumptions out there, instead of facts. I appreciate you sharing your logic, but for the sake of having a useful conversation, can we talk about what is ACTUALLY happening, instead of what you believe might be happening.

Actually, most of what I've read shows segregation among charter schools to be far worse than segregation among their neighboring traditional public schools. Not to mention, when your skim of the top, you further concentrate kids by economic status because of the link between poverty and school performance.

Check out The Civil Rights Study by the University of California, referenced in the below article:
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-...

There is a reason the NAACP opposes charter schools.

It's very interesting that Mr. Leftvic's daughter, from all the way over in Dunellen was given an opportunity to join Hatikva, instead of a child from neighboring New Brunswick who may be living in poverty.

Parents in boutique charter schools can point fingers at "for-profit" incubators, to take the focus away from their schools, but I find boutique charter schools like Hatikva to be some of the most offensive in terms of actually creating a level playing field for kids.

[ Parent ]
I'm wrong? (0.00 / 0)
Mendam and Bernardsville are heavily intergrated?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai
[ Parent ]
There was a waiting list... (0.00 / 0)
...and my daughter was 23rd on it at the beginning of the school year.  As I mentioned earlier, she was 3rd on the waiting list after the first lottery, but they held two more lotteries after that one and because we were not from East Brunswick (I am not sure if there are other towns that are part of Hatikvah's primary service area) she dropped down to 23.  

I can only guess that the 22 students ahead of her on the list were already enrolled in some other kindergarten program and their parents did not want to pull their children out of it halfway through the school year.  Our daughter was stuck in a pre-K program, so we jumped at the opportunity to put her into Hatikvah's kindergarten program.

Considering the fact that one of the biggest impediments (after poverty) to a quality education is the lack of parental engagement and involvement, I find it interesting that a system which puts a tremendous amount of emphasis on these factors are so vilified.

It is also inconsistent to say that an impoverished child from New Brunswick is more deserving of a spot in this school than a child (whose parents may be struggling in this economy as well for all you know or care) when at the same time you (or one of your fellow charter school opponents) is concerned about traditional schools in urban areas losing money to charter schools.

The fact of the matter is that you don't want charter schools to exist at all.  You don't want suburban or urban or rural children to attend them, but you'll tailor your arguments to best suit the school in question.  This is intellectual dishonesty at its worst.

I think that I have been completely honest about both my support for charter schools conceptually, while at the same time recognizing that there are serious flaws in how the current charter school law was written, how it has been implemented, and how charter schools are funded.  I believe that these flaws can be fixed as part of a wholesale public education reform effort rather than through a tactical legislative and regulatory onslaught intended to make it impossible for a charter school to open and/or remain open.

[ Parent ]
answers to your questions (0.00 / 0)
What would you like to see happen with "for-profit incubators?"

I would like to have the AG's office investigate them to ensure that every dollar that goes in gets spent on education and doesn't wind up enriching people involved with them through excessive administration.

And, what are your feelings about the re-segregation via charter schools (most recently documented in Minnesota)?

I am not familiar with this case, but I think someone asked me earlier about charter schools resembling the ethnic/racial makeup of the community and to that I said that I do not oppose ethicity/race-based lotteries and set asides that would hopefully make this less of an issue, but I would not support absolute quotas that could be used to prevent a charter school from opening.

How would you like to address the problem of stealth advertising by charter schools who only want kids from the rich side of town to enroll?

First and foremost, I think that all public schools should have free access to the postal service.  Second, charter schools should be required to send a letter or a postcard to every resident in the area introducing themselves to the community.

Also, how do you propose we deal with charter schools counseling out students who do not perform as well, to boost their scores?

Part of the accountability and transparency that you are looking for should include DoE staff visiting the homes of students who enroll in charter schools and de-enroll in the same year.  If it is determined that a student was coerced to de-enroll, then the school's charter should be subject to some form of probation and revocation if future incidents and investigations can prove a pattern of negative behavior.

How do we address the impact of higher concentrations of harder to educate students left behind in traditional schools?

This is going to be a problem in both lower performing and higher performing schools independent of the existence of charter schools.  As long as students are tracked into honors, standard, and basic level tracks, harder to educate students are going to be concentrated within classrooms, exacerbating the problem further.  Charter schools may make this problem even worse, but not nearly as much as tracking, but for the same reasons that tracking is never going to be done away with, charter schools should not be either.

How does changing the burden of payment to the State instead of the local school budget address this small sample of unaddressed problems with our state's charter school laws?

It doesn't but it does address macro-level problems.  Funding education with progressive income taxes rather than regressive property taxes removes the need to give voters the ability to approve or reject school budgets since total spending will be determined solely by population size and how money is spent can be determined solely by the professionals who have the education and experience to make these determinations.

Consolidating local school districts into county school districts enables a dramatic reduction in administrative spending and a dramatic increase in spending on content and teacher salaries.  Replacing standardized testing with observational methodologies will ensure a more accurate assessment of both student and teacher performance.

[ Parent ]
Mr. Lefkovic, action speaks louder than words... (0.00 / 0)
Now that you are part of the Hatikva community, why don't you assist them in advertising in some of the more poverty-heavy communities surrounding the East Brunswick area?  Why don't you ask them to enforce a system that ensures students from different economic backgrounds are included in the school? And, why don't you lobby them to prove that they are 1) using an ethical lottery system and 2) not counseling out under-performing students. Afterall, if all this is truly being done, wouldn't it benefit you and the Hatikva community to   share proof of this?
[ Parent ]
Mr. Lefkovic, action speaks louder than words... (0.00 / 0)
Now that you are part of the Hatikva community, why don't you assist them in advertising in some of the more poverty-heavy communities surrounding the East Brunswick area?  Why don't you ask them to enforce a system that ensures students from different economic backgrounds are included in the school? And, why don't you lobby them to prove that they are 1) using an ethical lottery system and 2) not counseling out under-performing students. Afterall, if all this is truly being done, wouldn't it benefit you and the Hatikva community to   share proof of this?
[ Parent ]
Diveristy (0.00 / 0)
Yes, there is a great cultural and geographic diversity of families that want free full day kindergarten.  look at you sending your child from Dunellen....But look at the attrition rate from kindergarten to first.  And by the way, orthodox families do not send their kids to, nor for the most part support, Hebrew charter schools.  And you may want to inquire about the spot that opened for you.  Ever heard of people being counseled out of charter schools?
[ Parent ]
Kindergarten is better than Pre-K (0.00 / 0)
The fact that Hatikvah offers full-day kindergarten is a bonus, but so does Dunellen.  The problem was that Dunellen was unusually strict in the enforcement of their cutoff dates and it did not make sense for us to continue to pay $300 a month for Pre-K when we could send our daughter to Hatikvah and have her start kindergarten.

We will have no choice, but to send her to Hatikvah next year if we want her to be in first grade.  After first grade, we can choose to send her to Hatikvah for second grade or send her to second grade in Dunellen, but if she is happy at Hatikvah and we are happy with Hatikvah, it will probably be an easy choice.

I would not expect Orthodox Jewish families to send their kids to or support the existence of Hebrew-immersion charter schools like Hatikvah as there is no religious education taking place there.  If they want religious education, they have to send their children to Jewish day schools and they do.

[ Parent ]
"Charter schools have bipartisan support" (0.00 / 0)
Despite all this supposed bipartisan support, you don't want the people to vote on them  Maybe because that "bipartisan support" actually comes from corporate-sponsored elitists.  Or from Christiecrat Democrats like Donald Norcross.
[ Parent ]
I don't want the voters... (0.00 / 0)
...to be able to approve or reject school budgets either, because far too many of them vote against them because they think that it will lower their property taxes significantly and it almost never does.

If voters could approve or reject charter schools, they would do it each and every time regardless of the merits or lack thereof.  I don't trust voters in general, because very few are educated enough on issues to make the right decision and even fewer are educated enough about issues concerning education to make the right decision.

[ Parent ]
"I don't trust voters in general" (0.00 / 0)
Pesky democracy!  
Good thing we've got experts like yourself.
[ Parent ]
they get it wrong more often than right (0.00 / 0)
Eight years of Dubya, Twelve years of Reagan-Bush, Eight years of Nixon-Ford, Christie, Whitman, the Christiecrats who are currently running the state, and so on.  Democracy might have worked better in the past when the stakes were not quite as high, but in my experience in my lifetime, they have not proven themselves qualified to make the important decisions that they are tasked to make in any remotely educated way, which is why our state, country, and world is in the terrible shape that it is today.  It is time for "The Adustment Bureau" to step in again.
[ Parent ]
I admit (0.00 / 0)
I find great humor in a person who has figured out how to make a district pay (rather than pay one's own $300) in tuition and circumvent the cut off date for the district, telling us that voters usually do not get it right.  Who should make all the decisions?  You?  
We stray from the original point of this discussion, but wow!

[ Parent ]
Why... (0.00 / 0)
...should my family have to pay $300 a month for pre-K when my daughter is more ready for kindergarten than many of the students who are there right now, but happen to have been born before the cutoff date?  Why should she be forced to wait a year to start school because she happened to be born 18 days too late?  As I have said before, many districts offer families the opportunity to start school early if they can demonstrate that their child is ready for kindergarten.  Dunellen doesn't, so excuse me if I don't feel guilty about any costs that they have to bear, because of their bad policies.

As far as who should make the decisions, I think that my Ed.M. makes me far more qualified than most voters, but aside from that, I would prefer to see most decisions being made by teachers, department heads, and principals and less being made by superintendents, business managers, elected members of boards of educations, and voters.

[ Parent ]
Are you okay (0.00 / 0)
With the billionaire investors pumping money into 'education reform' and the decisions they are making for us -- because that is where a lot of the push for charters is coming from!

And honestly, yes I think you should feel guilty about end running your town's school policies.  And by the way, since your child transferred after 10/15, as current charter law provides, your district will get a bill but the East Brunswick BoE will not be allowed to adjust their contribution down for the EB child who left the charter and returned to the district.  Think about how you got from 23rd to enrolling your daughter.....

[ Parent ]
NO!!! (0.00 / 0)
For as long as there has been a debate here about charter schools, I have distinguished between organically developed charter schools like the ones for whom I have consulted in the past and the one where I am sending my daughter and the for-profit charter school incubators.  The latter is undoubtedly a problem that must be addressed.  The former is not.  

As progressives, we should all be able to see that not all charter schools are the enemies of public education that we want to make them out to be and if instead of wasting so much time, energy, and resources demonizing them and their proponents, focused on the real problems, which are how public education is funded and organized and the for-profit charter school incubators, we could be united towards common goals and objectives that serve the greater good.

[ Parent ]
reminds me of tax loopholes... (0.00 / 0)
So, you don't like your town's policies, so you've found a loophole. It may be legal, but it doesn't make it right.

They didn't cave to your demands so now they are on the hook for paying for kindergarten for a child who doesn't qualify per district code, plus transporting your kid all the way from Dunellen to EB. (Plus EB is still on the hook for that student who transferred back to the public school after the Oct. 15 deadline. Gee, I wonder how an out-of-town student miraculosly won that spot in a lottery.)

As long as there are elitists who feel the rules shouldn't apply to them or their kids, or that their votes should be the only one that matters, there will be unfairness and injustice in our education system.

[ Parent ]
elitists (0.00 / 0)
Progressive history is full of examples of people challenging rules that they deem unfair and breaking, changing, or finding a way around them.

Dunellen chose to enforce their cutoff date strictly, so we were stuck sending our daughter to their pre-K program because we felt that some education, even a lesser and more expensive one, was better than no education.  We got a call from Hatikvah, where our daughter was on their waiting list, offering us a spot in their kindergarten.

Anyone who would continue to "follow the rules" and keep their child in pre-K when he/she could be in kindergarten just for the sake of following the rules should be reported to DYFS.  I cannot imagine anyone who truly cares about their children and the education that they get would make a different decision.

And anyone who would judge someone who does what is best for their children regardless of societal rules is the true elitist.  Maybe if more parents were deeply engaged in the education of their children and broke, challenged, or found a way around them, the rules that need to be changed would be changed and there would be less injustice and unfairness in our education system.

[ Parent ]
Justify your actions however you like.. (0.00 / 0)
In the past, when "progressives" challenged the rules, it was against systems that de-segregated our schools, not segregated them.  Under the current, out-dated model of  governance of charter schools in NJ, we are helping select students (and charter school operators)  at the expense of others. We should be focusing on systems that spread students of different economic backgrounds across different schools districts. And, more importantly, we should be doing so in a manner that curbs abuse of resources, not promotes it.

Also, I can't believe I have to say this to you, but no "progressive" would say "they [voters] have not proven themselves qualified to make the important decisions that they are tasked to make in any remotely educated way," or advocate for less democracy just because it would benefit themselves. EVERYONE should have the right to vote, regardless of education level.

[ Parent ]
I mispoke (mis-typed) (0.00 / 0)
Our progressive ancestors fought against segregation, not a system that promoted it.

You know what I meant.

[ Parent ]
Diversity (0.00 / 0)
I want to address your first paragraph b/c I agree with you.

"We should be focusing on systems that spread students of different economic backgrounds across different schools districts."

However, from my experience LIFO is driving affluent minorities out of minority communities and exacerbating the concentrated poverty you correctly cite.

I don't know if charters are the answer. But at this point, after every effort at reform has been beaten back, I think this is what we are left with. And I have a hard time imagining I can tell my friends who live in those communities, who sacrifice so much already to stay in those communities, "sorry you're just going to have to suck it up until some future date when the system can get its act together."  

[ Parent ]
I would like to believe... (0.00 / 0)
...in democracy, but more often than not, the voters have disappointed me, especially when it comes to education.  Maybe it would be different if school board elections and budget votes were held on the same day as the June primary (or possibly the general election but I have some concern about partisan elections polluting nonpartisan elections), but the fact of the matter is that very few voters understand the school budget sufficiently to make an educated decision and even fewer candidates for school board are educational professionals with the requisite understanding of what educational professionals need in order to succeed.

However, if you want to give the voters something to vote on, I have proposed in the past giving the voters the ability to decide whether they wanted their school district to remain independent (and funded solely with local property tax dollars with the ability to block the establishment of public charter schools) or to become part of a county school district (and funded solely with state/federal income tax dollars and without the ability to block the establishment of public charter schools).

I am not proposing to do away with the right to vote absolutely or imposing some kind of knowledge test, but when it comes to things like school budgets and blocking the establishment of charter schools, I do not believe that voters know enough to do the right thing.

[ Parent ]
A few thoughts... (0.00 / 0)
I see various points of view here, but some are due simply to a lack of information about how school districts work.

First, they are far from perfect. I heard a talking head the other night explaining a financial system such as a state budget as "an open, complex, adaptive system like an ecosystem. It's not a closed system, like a machine." Public education is the same because we are dealing with millions of unique individuals who all adapt and change as they grow. That said, there have to be some rules and reg's lest the whole system fall apart.

For those of you who do not work in education, trust me, those who are responding here who do, are correct. Public school districts will lose money and staff, and class sizes will increase if enough students transfer to charters. That will decimate high-performing districts, and drive the nail in the coffin of 'failing' districts. Special needs students are more expensive to educate, and poverty plays an enormous role in a child's ability to learn. If you don't believe us, I urge you to speak to your local superintendent. The vast majority of NJ's public schools have been doing an excellent job educating our students. We all can't be that wrong-despite what many in Trenton would have you believe.

Unless charters are are held to the same academic and financial standards, accountability and transparency as public schools, they should not be paid for with taxpayer dollars. I do not want my money spent on something that does not have a proven track record of success, and charters simply do not.

Viewing them as the cure for our poorest districts is shortsighted. To quote Julia Sass-Rubin of SOSnj, "We don't have failing schools, we have schools with high concentrations of poverty."

That is the problem.

More later...

And what have you done? (2.50 / 2)
What has the NJEA or the AFT EVER done to address this issue?  Have they lobbied with the millions at their disposal to illuminate the public?  Have they talked to parents in affluent areas about busing kids in from areas of concentrated poverty? Have they lobbied for affordable housing in affluent communities?

You correctly point out that concentrated poverty is the key here. But from my experience the unions haven't concerned themselves with how they play a CRITICAL role in exacerbating the problem. I'll suffer the slings and arrows now...

[ Parent ]
This comment (4.00 / 1)
I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this. This is not a thread about the NJEA, AFT or any other labor union. If you have a general problem with the right of workers to organize, fine - but don't project that opinion onto a completely separate discussion. That discussion, to be clear, is whether or not charter schools deliver on their promise of transformative change. The argument being made by Marie and many others is that they do not. That argument is backed by a heap of evidence which has yet to be answered for by its detractors.

Not to mention - asserting that the net effect of organized labor on poverty is negative is just silly.  

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Concetrated Poverty (0.00 / 0)
Through the myriad of comments we have drilled down to the essence of the issue facing urban education, concentrated poverty. That concentration has a spillover effect into the first suburbs, which is where elections are won and lost in New Jersey.

Ms. Corfield posits that nothing can be done to address urban education w/o addressing that underlying issue (concentrated poverty). I assume this fact was not lost on her profession in the years leading up to this day and ask what have they done to address this core issue (concentrated poverty). I think that's a fair question and not off topic.

I do not have a problem with right of workers to organize.  But if the NJEA (stress EDUCATION) and AFT have operated at cross purposes to educating urban students or have been negligent in addressing what has so clearly stymied educators for decades (concentrated poverty), I think that is a valid topic for discussion, HERE. Especially in light of the fact that she argues quite elegantly against a proposed solution.

Furthermore, I did not posit that the net effect of organized labor on poverty has been negative. I posit the net effect of organized education labor on concentrated poverty has been negative.

[ Parent ]
Uh (0.00 / 0)
So since poverty is also the main reason we have crime, abuse, addiction, etc.. Are you also going to ask what the police have done to alleviate poverty? Should we also hold accountable those embarrassing failures, the counselors and case managers? Concentrated poverty is also correlated to higher incidents of heart disease and diabetes - will you hold accountable in the same way the doctors wh serve that community?

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
If, if, if (0.00 / 0)
if the NJEA (stress EDUCATION) and AFT have (...) been negligent in addressing what has so clearly stymied educators for decades (concentrated poverty)

Leaving aside the "interesting" assumption that it is up to employee unions to solve the issue of concentrated poverty (as opposed to those in actual positions of power) you seem to make, how about some evidence to back up this "if" statement of yours. Otherwise, it remains just a baseless assertion on your part.

[ Parent ]
Completely Unaccountable (0.00 / 0)
No Aegeletes, its not your responsibility to solve anything. You are completely unaccountable. Does that makes you feel better?
[ Parent ]
There you go again, assuming (0.00 / 0)
To judge from your silly reply, you must think I'm one of those evil teachers you seem to think are responsible for urban poverty. I'm not. Try again. Where's your evidence?
[ Parent ]
instead of snark (0.00 / 0)
How about a substantive reply? You predicate this notion of responsibility on an idea, I asked you whether the logical extension of that idea makes sense, you avoid the question.  

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Why don't you people get it? (0.00 / 0)
I'm sick of non-union members suggesting how dues money paid by the union members is spent. Regardless of what you may think that money is deducted from the paychecks of educators, NOT from the school budget.

Educators have the ability to vote for their leadership who they think will best represent their best interests. Knowing that their interests are being handled, educators are then able to focus on the needs of the children in their charge.

The unions also spend millions of dollars from dues on teacher training programs and innovations to make teachers more effective in the classroom. This directly benefits the children of the teachers who attend these programs and the subsequent teachers with whom this information is shared.

[ Parent ]
Evidence? (0.00 / 0)
how they play a CRITICAL role in exacerbating the problem

That's far too blunt an accusation to made without any supporting evidence. Yet you offer none.

[ Parent ]
Evidence (0.00 / 0)
A True Story (4.00 / 2) posted April 2010:
I have been lobbying an acquaintance to stay in my town, in no small part due to my confidence in the school system, the quality of the teachers and the sense of comradery we have achieved in a diverse community.  A vice president of a major financial firm, he and his family are residents we should be fighting to keep. Last week he told me he enrolled his oldest child in the public Pre-K program. Unfortunately I had to tell him the program I had been lauding for the better part of two years program was being reduced to half-day. [Actually the school was closed.] Then I had to tell him the teacher I had been praising was being let go due to seniority rules.  I can not relate the pained expression that fell over his face.

Prologue: Well that resident is gone, so are his family and his children. Oh wait, I know, this is anecdotal too.

I really can't go another round here. Have a good weekend. Best regards.

[ Parent ]
Try the scientific method sometime (0.00 / 0)
Oh wait, I know, this is anecdotal too.

Bingo. You see, the problem with anecdotes is that for every anecdote "proving" A, somebody else can probably find an anecdote proving "not A." What matters is the overall weight of data. All you offer is a story.

[ Parent ]
Not even relevant to your accusation (0.00 / 0)
Incidentally, your anecdote doesn't even address your accusation that teachers and their union are playing a "CRITICAL" (please don't shout) role in urban poverty.
[ Parent ]
Look (0.00 / 0)
You are correct - you can't go another round - but it's because you haven't answered any of your challengers here substantively. Sorry, you can say we diminish your personal experience by applying the term "anecdote", but in reality your personal experience simply does not trump the body of research that has been done on this subject.

You sound like Steve Martin saying, "Well, excuuuuuuse me!"

The CREDO study, released in 2010, shows that nationally, only 17% of charter schools outperform their (often erroneously named) public school counterparts. This is is most complete and exhaustive study on this topic. So - even with extended days, years, counseling out, skimming and selective populations - only 17% of these schools did any better, then they overall did much worse.

You will not be accused of flimsy rhetoric once you can dispute the actual research. Not just vent your frustration.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
What was the measure of performance? (0.00 / 0)
If it was based on standardized testing, I think that what this study proved more than anything is that standardized testing is antithetical to innovation and that it does not serve the interests of students in public charter schools or traditional public schools.  

This is why I would like to do away with standardized tests altogether and replace them with observational assessment methodologies and then use the data provided by them to make comparisons in the quality of learning and teaching in both kinds of public schools.

[ Parent ]
CREDO (0.00 / 0)
multiple measures, and a study not without technical problems - i think everyone knows testing is a bust. Still best and most exhaustive study on topic, still doesn't show charters can help as reformers advertise.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
But in NYC... (0.00 / 0)
Stanford University's Center for Research on Educational Options (CREDO) has conducted a series of studies comparing the academic performance of charter and district schools. The New York City study finds that 51% of New York City charter schools show significantly larger growth in math, and 29% in reading, than students in district schools.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai
[ Parent ]
WEBER (0.00 / 0)
How many times are you going to repeatedly make this illegitimate comparison. Are you also likely to continually compare the disposable income of a childless couple vs. one with kids? How about average passing yards, NY Giants vs. a bunch of 8-year-olds?

Those schools with those scores - do they counsel out? Demand parental participation contracts? Have proportionate populations of ELL, Special Ed?  

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
You're kidding right? (0.00 / 0)
You bring up the CREDO report (which I know nothing about)... I look it up and see you chose to only relay the data about the national 16 state study, vs. the one in New York City.

Now, considering that the majority of NJ Charters are in urban districts, which do you feel is a more legitimate comparison...?

I didn't pick the criteria, CREDO did... and you cited their work.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Is 17% better than nothing? (0.00 / 0)
17%! You know I don't think 17% is all that bad. Seems to me like that's a good jumping off point to get 25% to 50% and perhaps 60%...

On the topic of number, 8% of charter school students are classified as special needs. Strange how that figure got lost in the ether.

Now if you told me 2% or more were failing then...

The upshot here is that charters have to be CLOSELY (emphasis added, not shouted) monitored and their successes replicated wherever possible.

[ Parent ]
Ha (0.00 / 0)
For someone so concerned with "choice," you sure don't sound like a very savvy consumer.

Product B is introduced to replace product A. Product B has various technical advantages over product A, but in real-world performance is only able to outperform product A 17% of the time. In order to be considered comparable, a product with technical advantages would have to outperform its competition at least 50% of the time, and that would not be very impressive at all considering the technical "advantages."

In fact, if, considering its technical advantages, product B ONLY performs better than product A 50% of the time, that means it's an inferior product.

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
17% perform better BUT (0.00 / 0)
37% perrform worse than their public counterparts which negates their success.
[ Parent ]
Charters are not the cure... (0.00 / 0)
...but they are also not the boogeyman.  I believe that they have a place within a wholesale reform of how public education is funded and organized.

The problem is that too many of their proponents have ulterior motives and too many of their opponents choose to ignore their long-term potential, because of the short-term problems that their flawed introduction and implementation have caused.

I believe that solutions to these problems can be found if people who truly believe in public education in its broadest and deepest terms unite against those who see charter schools as a weapon that can be used to destroy public education as we know it.

[ Parent ]
Misplaced idealism (4.00 / 1)
Why put your faith in something that you know damn well is being promoted by wealth and power for all the wrong reasons? Basically the question is, why charters? Why aren't we talking about affordable housing, busing, teacher development,  or any number of other things?

The real irony, Mr. Lefkovic, is that you see all the potential problems. You recognize that once the door was opened to privatization, the "for-profit charter school incubators" came rushing in. But you're not willing to acknowledge that, by turning to non-public schools to solve the problem of poverty-induced under-education, that rush was inevitable. And the only reason everyone is fixated on charters and vouchers as education reforms is because wealthy, powerful people are spending a lot of money to make sure that's what we fixate on.

[ Parent ]
my idealism is based on experience (0.00 / 0)
I have consulted for charter schools that are not promoted by wealth and power for all the wrong reasons, so excuse me if I am not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is undoubtedly dirty, but can be cleaned if proponents of public education in its broadest sense work together to do so.  Why are we talking about charters?  Because Marie Corfield chose to write a compelling diary that was worthy of discussion.  If you would like to write a diary about affordable housing, busing, teacher development, or any number of things, please feel free to do so.

I don't believe that charter schools were ever conceived to solve the problem of poverty-induced under-education, but they have definitely been sold as such by the for-profit charter school incubators, which should have been a warning sign of their ulterior motives.  I can't speak about why other people fixate on charter schools (I do not support vouchers under any circumstances), but I support them conceptually based on my personal experience with organically-developed ones and believe that they should be the model, not the ones mass-produced by the incubators.

If you want to find irony in that position, that is your business, but the fact of the matter is that there are numerous organically-developed charter schools throughout the state and they were started by very progressive people who felt that because of the limitations imposed on them by their administration and/or local school boards, traditional public schools did not have the ability to provide the kind of education that they wanted for their children and the children of others in their communities.  The ones which I have been involved with have made amazing strides in the areas of incorporating the concepts of sustainability in every aspect of their school's curriculum and promoting student self-governance and self-management.

Traditional public schools have a primary responsibility to educate as many students as possible as best as possible.  This often limits their ability to serve students at the highest and lowest ends of the performance spectrum.  Charter schools may not be the best solution for lowest performing students, but they have tremendous potential for the highest performing students.  Obviously, this potential has to be tempered by the negative fiscal impact that charter schools can have on traditional schools within the current funding paradigm, but this is exactly why the current funding paradigm has to change and why both opponents and proponents of charter schools can find common ground in fighting for this kind of change.

[ Parent ]
All over the map (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry that you want charter schools to be this other thing that you believe they were once conceived to be, but nostalgia is not very practical. I remember when the GOP actually had sane moderates in it, too, but we have to deal with what we have before us. In terms of charters, what we have before us is an agenda being pushed by Christie and Cerf that just isn't what you think it is. They are promoting charters in NJ in the name of the Kochs and Waltons and ALECs of this nation - in a war on public education. They have no truth on their side, because the best studies done to date show charters are no better than public schools, but they sure as hell siphon money from the public schools to the detriment of the kids there.

As for the baby in your bathwater, look again. It's not very cute. Even those charters that predate the current debate have been extremely problematic. We have one here in Morristown. It focuses on sustainability. Maybe you're involved with it, I don't know. But it has a long history of being unrepresentative of the population of its community; its existence is something of a well kept secret, in fact. I've written about it here
http://smokingtowardnewjersey....
and here
http://smokingtowardnewjersey....

[ Parent ]
Extremely problematic... (0.00 / 0)
...is in the eye of the beholder.  Yes, I was a consultant for the Unity Charter School in the late 90s when it opened.  I cannot speak to the demographic makeup of its student body now, because I have not been involved with them for over a decade, but when it first opened, it was as diverse as the districts that it served, which includes more diverse Morristown, less diverse Morris Township, and Morris Plains, which is probably somewhere in between.

UCS also had its fair share of special needs students back then for those who think that all charter schools go out of their way to exclude special needs students.  I know that when UCS first opened, we did a tremendous amount of community outreach, primarily because the charter school law was so new and most people had no idea what a charter school was.

The people who started UCS was an incredibly progressive bunch of people who felt that the unified school district was too constrained by the limitations of the goals and objectives that are common to most traditional public schools and too dominated by the more conservative Morris Township elements and it was their hope that the incorporation of sustainability principles into the culture, curriculum, and infrastructure of the school could be a model for the unified district and other districts over time.

If this hope has still yet to be realized, it is primarily due to the competitive rather than cooperative relationship between public charter schools and traditional public schools.  This relationship is not the fault of either, but of how public education as a whole is funded.  as I have said before, I believe that most of the problems vis a vis charter schools will go away if we change how public education as a whole is funded.

That said, I am sure that nothing short of the elimination of charter schools will satisfy you and that is unfortunate.  All of the problems that you cite are indeed problems, but they are solvable, but it is not necessary to get rid of them entirely to do that.

But even if it were, it isn't going to happen.  There are more than enough Democrats and Republicans who support the existence of charter schools to make sure of that.  So progressive opponents and proponents of charter schools can either unite on behalf of the reforms that will make them what we think that they should be or remain divided and sit idly by as Christie, Cerf et al continue to do the bidding of the Koch Bros., the Waltons, et al at the expense of public education.

[ Parent ]
Bertin, why do you refuse to address the problem of segration via charter schools? (0.00 / 0)
This is not the first time that you have just brushed off a statement about the existence of a systematic form of segregation by a charter school. You've posted here since my last question to you, and you have not answered my question. So,I'll ask again:
Now that you are part of the Hatikva community, why don't you assist them in advertising in some of the more poverty-heavy communities surrounding the East Brunswick area?  Why don't you ask them to enforce a system that ensures students from different economic backgrounds are included in the school? And, why don't you lobby them to prove that they are 1) using an ethical lottery system and 2) not counseling out under-performing students. Afterall, if all this is truly being done, wouldn't it benefit you and the Hatikva community to   share proof of this?

You've said above you support these ideas, so why not do your part as parent of a boutique charter school student?

[ Parent ]
make up your mind (0.00 / 0)
Excuse me if I missed a few out of 113 comments.  I will repeat what I wrote earlier, which is that the demographic makeup of the school appears to be pretty diverse from the little that I have seen thus far.  I don't know what the demographic makeup of East Brunswick is and whether or not it is the only district that the school is required to pull something like 90% of its student body from so I am not sure if it is as diverse as it could be or should be, but as I said before, it seems pretty diverse.

Do you want charter schools to attract students from poverty-heavy communities like New Brunswick and take money out of their school districts or not?  If I am confusing you with someone else who is concerned with the negative fiscal impact of charter schools on cash-strapped traditional schools in urban areas, I am sorry.

My family has been part of this community for less than a week.  Right now, my focus is on my daughter's education, not how the school advertises or whether or not the lottery is ethical or whether or not they counsel out underperforming students.  If during the course of the rest of this school year, I experience anything like what you describe here that gives me reason for pause, I will address it at that time.

Under the circumstances, I think that expecting me to do anything else is unreasonable, but being reasonable has never been a limitation for an ideologue.  Has it?

[ Parent ]
Hatikvah (0.00 / 0)
 Bertin, It is quite clear that if it saves you money, it is okay with you.  The diversity you see at Hatikvah is largely due to the full free day kindergarten - as I said before look at the attrition rate when you enter first grade.  The diversity does not reflect our community.  In addition, you will not find the diversity of free/reduced lunch or special needs children (like the one whose spot you took).  What we will end up with is a diverse set of charter schools - one to teach Mandarin and Chinese culture, one to teach Arabic, one to teach Hebrew.  Do you place any value on public education?

But if it saves you $300/month, it can't be bad......please give this a rest, read the extensive literature on the work being done to change charter school legislation in this state, read about the segregation visible in the NJ charter school system (look at Bruce Bakers work), read up on the posting of SOSnj's work to change the status quo laws (no, not get rid of charters as you keep indicating), read up on who is putting their money behind even the non-profit charter school movements, then come back and have this discussion.  But I get it, if it works for you and saves you the money, you are good.  

And when you keep going back to the funding issue - funding schools a different way, think about how the Governor two years ago decided to slash state aid to schools -- mid-budget year - and then decide whether you want most of our school districts to depend on the state to dole out what it collects from us......my property taxes may be high but at least we have (well, not with charters) control over how we spend that money.  

[ Parent ]
Free Lunch (0.00 / 0)
My daughter qualifies for the free lunch program, so if she replaced someone who also qualified for the free lunch program, then nothing has changed.  Don't even think that you are in any position to judge me or the decisions that I make for my family.  Clearly, if you can afford to pay high property taxes, then you are less like most people in our state than I am, who are struggling to provide the basics for their family during these extremely difficult times.

And if you are someone who believes in home rule and local control, there is no point in us talking further.  You might be able to afford high property taxes, but it is killing most middle-class homeowners and it is slowly, but surely putting the squeeze on public education in the state.  

High property taxes, most of which are used to fund education are what enables conservatives like Christie, Cerf, et al to turn the public against public education, teachers, and teachers unions, and why the promise of cheaper, for-profit, incubated charter schools is so attractive to so many people who don't know better (this is one of the many reasons why I don't trust voters to make important decisions related to education).

If you aren't willing to address the costs inherent in home rule, anything that you try to do to reform charter schools independent of that is doomed to fail.

[ Parent ]
To quote myself (0.00 / 0)
"According to the state school report card on Unity, in 2009-2010 the proportion of Unity students who lived in homes where English was the first language was 100%. The proportion whose English proficiency was limited was, of course, 0%. No other Morris School District school can say that. Among the elementary schools, limited English proficiency rates range from around 5% up to around 18%. The rate at Normandy Park, the multiage magnet school included on the district's registration form, is 17.1%.

Proponents of charter schools say they're just another kind of public school, managed independently but entitled to public dollars. They're supposed to give parents a choice. But looking at those numbers, you have to wonder - which parents?"

[ Parent ]
When I was involved... (0.00 / 0)
...with UCS, we wrote two-sided introduction letters in English and Spanish and sent them to every family in Morristown and Morris Township.  I do not know how many ESL students that there were in Unity's first year, but there were defintely some.

If there has been a failure with regards to their outreach since this time, I can only guess that it has been a result of receiving significantly more applications than available spaces over a period of consecutive years and scarce resources that had been dedicated towards outreach were reallocated elsewhere.

I think that this is an area where it is probably easy to indict most charter schools, but I don't necessarily think that it is fair to assume that their failure to be sufficiently diverse is intentional in every case, particularly when a language barrier has to be overcome.  If I had to guess, I would say that organic charter schools are probably guilty of benign neglect to one degree or another, while for-profit incubators have probably made exclusionary practices into an art form.

[ Parent ]
Weak excuses (0.00 / 0)
Why should I give Unity the benefit of the doubt? For that matter, why should the reason their outreach is so bad matter? It's bad. Period. And my point is not to crucify Unity - it's that charter schools by their very nature are outside the system, and therefore this kind of thing can go on much more easily.

There's a discussion going on somewhere above about charters vs magnet schools, and whether they're both skimming the best students from other schools. Here in Morristown, the magnet school is publicized by the district. When you go to register your kid for school, you can check off on the form whether you want to enter the lottery for the magnet school. There is no mention that a charter school even exists. The lottery for the charter is entirely separate. No letters are sent home. Many, many parents have never heard of it. It's frankly outrageous.

Cutting the profit motive out of the charter equation is certainly a good start, but it's not enough. You're right - I won't be satisfied until charters play by the same rules as everyone else. There is room within the public school system to create specialized schools that are truly welcomed by the community.

[ Parent ]
Great points, Tamar (0.00 / 0)
Even if Unity did publicize its lottery as well as the magnets do, there is no level of fairness and accountability in the lottery system. (As we can see in Bertin's case, where there was an incentive for the charter to counsel out a student and then bring in an out-of-town student so that the school could double-dip on per pupil funding. EB schools don't get any $ back for the student transferring back to the public schools because we've passed the October deadline, and Dunellen still has to pay for Bertin's kid's tuition plus exorbitant transportation costs.)  Sure, you can take funding out of the equation, but as Tamar pointed out, we still need to level the playing field. There are no safe guards to ensure fair lottery processes, no penalty for practices like counselling students out, and no requirements for the charter to reflect the communities they recruit from.

So, listen Bertin, as I said earlier on, I don't judge your decision to do whats best for your kid - that's your job as a parent. I do judge a system that puts you in a position to make a decision that gives you an advantage at the expensive of any other child.

But, there are larger problems here, Bertin, than just the funding model. You said you don't think its your responsibility to keep your school honest, the community is kept in the dark and has no authority so we can't police it, and right now we are at the mercy of an activist commissioner of ed with a financial stake in the game. Who is going to keep this school accountable?

So, Bertin, I'll fully support your efforts to correct what you see as funding inequalities. But why can't you also support our efforts to make the charters fully accountable and held to fair standards. As a parent of charter  school student, don't you want that?

[ Parent ]
I have never objected... (0.00 / 0)
...to any efforts you have expressed to make charters more accountable and transparent insofar as that is their intent and not to place undue regulatory burdens on them that make it impossible for them to open or stay open.  I do believe that the intent of giving voters the right to approve or reject charter schools is to prevent them from existing.  I am not sure if the same is true for your other initiatives.

I also think that you are assuming that the opening that my daughter was able to fill came about as a result of some insidious plot on the part of the school when the chain of events could have been completely benign.  The fact that you jump to this conclusion leads me to believe that you have a bias against this and all charter schools and would probably prefer to eliminate them than reform them.

[ Parent ]
Do you really think... (0.00 / 0)
...that the district would publicize this school if asked?  I don't.  I would be open to a rule that says that the district must give the charter school the same publicity as the magnet school and be allowed to deduct the cost of that publicity from the money that they send the school, but I seriously doubt that the district would support such a rule or comply with it if it went into effect.

If the school's lack of outreach is a conscious decision on the school's part, because of the reasons that you state, I seriously doubt that there is anybody at the district that is complaining about it.  In fact, there is nothing preventing the district from having its guidance counselors give parents of the most costly or difficult students information about the school, but I am sure that they would prefer to keep their money and deal with these students.

This is one more issue that charter school opponents have concocted out of thin air that has no basis in reality.  While it might be a real problem, it is one that neither the charters or the districts are looking to fix anytime soon.

[ Parent ]
My point exactly (0.00 / 0)
BINGO. The problem arises by the very nature of the charter school existing outside the system. Tax dollars are going to support a school that prefers to fly under the radar, and the school district is disincentivized to publicize it. I have no idea why you say it's an issue concocted by charter opponents when you defined the problem so perfectly yourself. It's a broken system with built-in problems.  
[ Parent ]
Because... (0.00 / 0)
...it is a problem that neither the charters nor the districts want to solve, making it a straw man that charter school opponents use against charters even though they know that nobody involved in the fight on the ground cares about it.

Yes, it is a broken system with built-in problems, which is why the solutions can only be found in wholesale public education reforms that change how public education is funded and organized.

Imagine a system as I have described elsewhere, where all public education is funded with state (and possibly federal) income tax dollars and local school districts being replaced with county school districts.

First and foremost, charter schools would serve entire counties, so their fiscal impact is spread out over an entire county rather than one or several districts.

Second, because of countywide school choice, higher performing schools like the ones in the unified district could easily replace the students that they lose with higher performing students from lower performing schools elsewhere in the county.

Third, because charter schools would have less of a negative fiscal impact on individual schools, the county districts could be tasked with the responsibility of publicizing them with no disincentive.

Finally, the funding paradigm that I have proposed where charter schools get only 50% of the sending school's per pupil money (the remaining 50% is in the form of a loan from the state that must be repaid by the end of the school year using tax-creditable contributions from private sources) while the sending school keeps 25% (2.5 times what they keep right now) and 25% is held back to fund cooperative programming that benefits everyone in the entire system.

[ Parent ]
ummm.... (0.00 / 0)
I am no school funding expert and will leave it to others to analyze the details of your proposal. Just three quick points:

1. Why? Nothing about your plan addresses why charters are inherently desirable. It sounds like you're after public school choice, which makes the need for charters even more mystifying.

2. "...because of countywide school choice, higher performing schools...could easily replace the students that they lose with higher performing students from lower performing schools elsewhere in the county." So the goal is to consolidate higher performing students in fewer schools? Why?

3. "...a loan from the state that must be repaid by the end of the school year using tax-creditable contributions from private sources..." So charters must have private funding? Sounds like institutionalized charity schools.

[ Parent ]
answers (0.00 / 0)
1.  Charters (at least the organicially-developed ones) are inherently desirable because people go through a tremendous amount of work to start them and people send their children to them, so they must have some value.  Yes, I do believe that they are a component of any public school choice program and are better in every way than private schools.

2.  My goal is to give higher performing students in lower performing schools more opportunities to make the most of their abilities.  As we have discussed here, the problems facing failing schools have less to do with the schools themselves and more to do with the communities that they are in.  

Solving problems like poverty and urban blight will take generations once our local, county, state, and federal governments get around to trying to solve them.  Until that happens, there is not much that can be done for most of the students in these schools, but something can be done for those students who exhibit both the ability and the willingness to perform at high levels and I believe that everything possible can and should be done for them.

3.  Do you want charters to take 90% of a sending school's money?  I think that is part of the problem of why charters and traditionals are forced to compete with rather than cooperate with one another.  It has been agreed that not all spending is per pupil spending and that the 10% that is left behind when a student goes to a charter school is not enough.  I have proposed a system that leaves behind 2 1/2 times that amount and sets aside an amount equal to that to incentivize cooperation, and you choose to nitpick that I have made up the difference with tax-creditable private contributions.

I believe that charter schools should be the laboratories for innovation that they were originally conceived to be, not the tool of people who want to destroy public education that they have become.  I believe that the only way to ensure that this happens is to put the onus on them to be truly innovative and put their innovations out into the market to receive private support.  If they cannot do that, they should not be allowed to stay open.

[ Parent ]
Wow (0.00 / 0)
1. Everything that takes a lot of work is inherently desirable? The weakness of that argument is self-evident.

2. The systematic segregation of high- and low-achieving students in separate schools would be tantamount to accepting a European-style system of separate academic and vocational schools. In the US, we've adopted a policy of not giving up on a child's academic future at a young age. We could debate the wisdom of this, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

3. I do not think objecting to the institutionalization of charity schools within the public education system is nitpicking. Not even a little bit.

Since you and I seem to be the last people left in this discussion, I think I'll make this my last word - but of course if you choose to respond, Bertin, I will read with respect.

[ Parent ]
my last word hopefully (0.00 / 0)
1.  Having been involved with the development of a charter school from the ground up and the level of commitment and dedication is required by so many people, I do believe it is desirable for our public sector to incentivize this kind of community organizing even if for reasons that are both fair and unfair it may not ever be embraced by the community-at-large.  

In my opinion, government's role in this situation is to enable people to come together in this way for this purpose and ensure that the outcome of their efforts benefits those who it serves without negatively impacting those who it doesn't.  The current charter school law fails in this regards, but I believe that the changes that I have proposed do not.

2.  I don't want to give up on anybody, but considering the systemic state of failure within urban schools due to factors that have less to do with the schools and more to do with the state of urban america, at a certain point you have to do triage and dedicate the bulk of your efforts on those students who can make the most of those efforts.  I believe that middle school is the right time to do this kind of triage, because that is when systemic factors become far more dangerous.

When my wife and I were looking at homes, we considered Plainfield for a short period of time, because we had heard that it was possible to find amazing bargains and that their elementary schools ranged from very good to mediocre, but that middle school was when issues involving crime, drugs, gangs, and violence in general became particularly acute and that was when many Plainfield parents would take second and third jobs to be able to afford private school.

So we figured that we could live there until our first child was about to enter middle school and by that time, we could afford a home in a town with better schools.  Unfortunately, by the time that we were looking, the bargains that we had heard about there were few and far between and were fortunate enough to find the house in neighboring Dunellen that barely fit into our budget.

It is possible that a European-style system that provides college preparatory academics to those students who are most likely to benefit from them and vocational-oriented training to those who are most likely to benefit from them could be better than the system that we currently have, which tends to shovel students to vo-tech based more on their behavior than their aptitude.

A big part of this problem has to do with standardized testing.  I think that if we were able to do away with standardized tests and replace them with observational assessment methodologies, not only would we be able to better assess the quality level of learning and teaching, but also help students with behavioral issues the help that they need before they get shoveled inappropriately into the vo-tech program.  The way that students are tracked is another big problem, which creates as many problems as the European system that you described.

The biggest problem with our current vo-tech system is that it is not broad or deep enough to prepare students who are not going to go to college with the training that they will need to succeed, which requires far too many of them to enlist in the military and put their lives on the line in order to get the experience and training that they will need for the rest of their lives assuming that they have a rest of their lives and a completely intact body in which to live it.

I also believe that our entire public and higher education systems needs to be lengthened so that young people have the time to make the important decisions about their lives at ages that are appropriate to make them.  I would extend primary education to grade eight and start secondary education in grade nine, where I would extend the school day to 8:00pm, enabling young people to pursue internships and part-time jobs earlier in the day so that can have a much broader and deeper array of choices instead of the much narrower ones available to them in the late afternoon and evening.

I would make community colleges more robust so that they could serve more students, provide baccalaurate and master's degree programs both in the confines of their campuses as well as online, and compete with the more traditional colleges and universities in our country, proving that the cost of campus life has become way too high and that the best way for someone to become educated is to be in school and the workplace at the same time so that both endeavors can properly influence one another.

These kinds of reforms don't happen on their own.  It requires the kinds of laboratories for innovation that charter schools are supposed to be to experiment and take the first steps forward with their successes emulated by traditional schools and their failures learned from by all.

3.  I think that forcing a charter school to compete in the philanthropic marketplace and prove that it is truly innovative and deserving of its place in the public education system is a solution to a problem and calling it a charity school is just being dismissive for the sake of being dismissive.  I believe that this is the best way for charter schools to exist that minimizes the negative fiscal impact on traditional schools.

[ Parent ]
Logic. (0.00 / 0)
For those of you who do not work in education, trust me, those who are responding here who do, are correct. Public school districts will lose money and staff, and class sizes will increase if enough students transfer to charters.

Your statement leads to the largest districts having the smallest class sizes, which isn't true. One need not work in education to see the absence of logic there.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Basics (3.00 / 1)
Seems you lack the basics. When students leave a district, class size is reduced only until the point at which there are not enough students in a class to keep it open. In other words, class sizes will shrink first, then balloon exponentially.  

"We do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior." - Friedrich Durrenmatt

[ Parent ]
Lack the basics (0.00 / 0)
And this from a market fundamentalist no less.

Fewer students.  Less resources.  Fewer staff.  Larger class size.

[ Parent ]
Stop it. (0.00 / 0)
You two are just being silly.

Loo at the department of education's report.

Let's take... say... Hamilton... a high performing district... You will see they spend about 180 million in the district... that's a lot of students and a lot of reasources...

Now let's compare that to say... North Warren Regional.. (my alma mater) that spends a paltry 16 million... (approx)...

Following your logic, which district has lower class sizes?

http://education.state.nj.us/r...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Appalling. (0.00 / 0)
I had never been inside a charter school myself, until yesterday.  My cousin works in one in Bergen County, and I went to visit her after classes.  I'm not going to name the school, but I was gravely disturbed by the conditions of the building.  The bathroom was a mess, and many of the classrooms were unusually tiny.  I can't comment on the curriculum, since all I saw was the building itself.  But, it seems money is getting wasted for both the public and charter schools.  I don't know why the buildings can't be maintained better.  The learning environment suffers in an old and antiquated building.  This makes me question whether it's a debate of charter versus public, or more about how the money is being utilized.
Why push-back against charters? Because they don't deliver the goods. | 138 comments
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