National Test Scores Released; How Did NJ Do?

But I thought our public school system was "failing"? (0.00 / 0)

And its teachers "incompetent."  And that the solution was to defund it and privatize it as much as possible.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  

---

by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 16:46:37 PM UTC

tell that to Camden. (0.00 / 0)

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 16:51:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's why there are special needs districts (0.00 / 0)

But there are no guaranteed outcomes.  Just blanketly blaming the schools and the teachers for the outcomes without factoring in the socioeconomic conditions is not the answer.

---

by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 17:30:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

If the problem is in Camden... (4.00 / 2)

... why are we changing the way schools are run in Haddonfield?

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

---

by: Jersey Jazzman @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 17:35:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So lets mess with the whole state... (0.00 / 0)

...rather than focus on what might be specifically the problem in Camden (starting with poverty, crime, etc.), right?

---

by: Alex @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 17:39:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Are there other states that are doing a better job? (0.00 / 0)

In results for high-poverty areas? That seems like a relevant question - and if the answer is yes, then we should learn from their strategies. If no, especially for places that have used vouchers, less tenure, etc. before, then we should learn from that too.

As for race, New Jersey apparently has seen significant improvements in graduation rates for black males and "is the only state with a significant Black male population with a greater than 65% high school graduation rate." That seems really significant, right? Is it possible that we are actually making strides in education in poorer and predominantly minority communities, and we're not hearing about it?

I'm not an expert - but these questions seem like really relevant ones. Just saying "x could be higher" is not a justification for doing y, without proof that y solves the problem...

---

by: the_promised_land @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 17:57:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Want to help Camden kids? (4.00 / 4)

Address poverty. Address public safety. Address foreclosure.

Address access to health care - not only for children, but for their mothers so each child is wanted and pregnancies are healthy, and for parents so they can be as productive as possible.  Address whether homes are warm enough for families to function comfortably at home. Address nutrition. Address mentoring.

Address war spending. And the cash we've given away to banks and corporations that don't invest back in us.

Address policies that make it easy to export manufacturing and service jobs out of the country. Address union-busting and union-weakening policies put in place by our leaders; unions are a big part of building a system of living wages.

You want to get serious about any of that? Because nobody who won't is credible on education.

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 18:22:36 PM UTC

Ironic... (0.00 / 0)

You and I on the same page. I'm inferring from your post that you believe the societal problems are beyond the reach of the school, and I'd agree.

But I'd take it one step further and recognize that if societal problems are beyond the reach of the school district, then you aren't going to solve those problems by superfunding the school district.

Siphon some of the extraordinary school aid and hire cops, spur economic development, etc... try a different angle in the formerly Abbot districts.

But to keep saying if we just spent MORE money on the school system is being as myopic as the person who refuses to address the concerns you have listed above...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 18:57:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

If you don't spend (0.00 / 0)

for things like full day kindergarten, preschool and after school programs, those societal problems will have more of an impact than they already do.  Not to mention spending on resources.

And if they take money from education, what makes you think they would actually spend it on improving the existing conditions in these districts?  

---

by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 19:12:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Camden closed its libraries... (0.00 / 0)

we can't possibly be serious about opportunity.  

---

by: sayitaintso @ Wed Nov 02, 2011 at 18:16:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Where the money is going (0.00 / 0)

Christie and his ilk are not taking money from the schools to alleviate poverty and other root causes of poor educational outcomes. They are taking money from the schools to line the pockets of their corporate benefactors by eviscerating public schools in favor of charter corporate schools.

Blog: http://www.deciminyan.org

---

by: deciminyan @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 19:21:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, I don't think we're on the same page. (0.00 / 0)

Because I suspect you're fine with defunding public education. Because I suspect you think investors will do a better job managing school systems. Because by being sympathetic to union-busting, you probably think the problem with Camden schools is Camden teachers and the NJEA. And I don't think you'd last an hour in a teacher's shoes, because I doubt most people would. And because I doubt you grasp what part discrediting teachers and their union has in wedging an opening for people looking to make a killing off education.

Because you may be fine with the kind of high turnover many charter schools have. Because you might think schools staffed with young, inexpensive teachers with zero or minimal experience makes them "better". Because you may be the kind of education 'reform' proponent that doesn't think paying attention to whether 'reform' actually works is important. Or paying attention to what does work. Because I suspect you're a suburbanite seething with resentment that your dollars don't all stay where you live.

Because I'm guessing that long list of things I that should be addressed by anybody who wants to be credible on education and the condition of children ... isn't anything you think should.

We're not on the same page.


It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 19:46:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That 'same page' comment of mine? (0.00 / 0)

That's for you, William Weber (WjcW).

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 19:53:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

First off... (0.00 / 0)

don't pretend to know who I am or what I'm capable of...that's just silly.

Address the issue... if you are overfunding by 200% plus of the average in the successful districts, but are not seeing the desired results (not the same results, but desired results), why wouldn't you condone scaling back a FRACTION of that funding (overfund them, just at a lower level, say 150% of average) with the stipulation that the money given up has to be spent in the district to address the other issues WE ALL AGREE are affecting achievement levels.

I'm taking a step back here and saying, everyone agrees that education is the sum of many parts, I've seen posts here estimating the impact of the teacher alone as low as 20%. On some level recognition of that fact has to lead you to realize that we are approaching the limit of what makes sense to spend in these districts.

The guy across the street is a Rutgers educated Spanish teacher, selling pizza. I ask him, can't you get a teaching job in Camden, his repsonse, "I would have to take a pay cut, starting salary in Camden for Spanish is 24k"....

I look at that and say something's wrong. There is no way Camden or any other Abbot can't afford to keep pace with the best paid districts. It's time to stop throwing money at the problem, addressing it in the same manner we have for 10 years, and expecting a different result.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 20:29:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Education spending... (0.00 / 0)

...is constitutionally mandated.  The other forms of spending are not.

That said, I seriously doubt that you have looked at one of these districts' budgets to see what they are spending their money on to determine if it is being well spent or not.  You are only looking at the outcomes and making a general statement that the money is being wasted.

There are a couple of problems with this approach.  First and foremost is that the primary measurement of the quality (or lack thereof) of our public schools is standardized tests, which most education professionals know to be a deeply flawed measurement.  Even graduation rates, which appear to be improving in NJ's urban schools, is not a good measurement either as it is very easy for students to be graduated without being properly educated.

The only good measurement of student and teacher performance is observation and if you have problems with how much money is being spent on education, you are not going to be willing to spend the amount of money that it would take to implement a legitimate observational evaluation system into our schools.

That said, if you honestly want to find a way to squeeze as much efficiency out of spending as possible, you have to start by doing away with local school districts and municipalities and administrating everything at the county level.  Purchasing and payroll contracts would be negotiated at the state level to take advantage of NJ's economies of scale.

This system would also allow for a certain degree of school choice, most likely at the secondary level whereby the highest performing students would be able to attend the highest performing schools, while the lowest performing students would be required to attend the lowest performing schools.  It would also allow teachers to relocate while retaining their tenure and for teachers to be transferred based on the needs of schools.

Unless you can point to specific expenditures that urban schools are making that are wasteful, the idea that money can be taken from schools to improve a community's socioeconomics is ludicrous.

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 21:05:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

William (0.00 / 0)

I don't have time for a full analysis, but your contention that we have been "throwing money at the problem" and not getting results is not true.

From 2003 to today's results, Black children in NJ have seen their 4th Grade math scores rise 14 points: more than a year's worth of learning. That ranks NJ 5th in the nation for Black 4th Grade math, and 2nd behind RI for gains over the time period.  (RI has about a 6% black population; NJ is around 14%.)

NJ has made much more of a commitment toward raising achievement for all students than many other states. To say that we haven't had successes is simplistic and not true.

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

---

by: Jersey Jazzman @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 21:07:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

William (0.00 / 0)

Go back and read. My language was pretty careful, and pretty clear. I don't know you, though I have read your comments for more than 6 years now (you are user #39, of thousands since you), so I'd argue I'm not entirely in the dark.

But note that I don't take you for granted. I say that I suspect you think xxx, or that I doubt you think xxx, that you may be fine with xxx. Probably, don't think, and doubt also make their appearance. If you don't like the picture you think I painted of you, you're not making an effective case by using terms like "throwing money at the problem". And as to what results we get when we "throw money at the problem" I would refer you to Jersey Jazzman's direct answer to you. He's right.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 21:31:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

SL makes this look like bad news (0.00 / 0)

Some see the glass as half empty--(or half full of expired banana Quik with a bug in it).

"In New Jersey, student scores overall showed little change - officials said results were "completely flat statistically" in both subject areas between 2009 and 2011. But the state's students still ranked near the top in the country."   "But," indeed!

See link for more of the same.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.s...

---

by: Nowlan @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 22:37:54 PM UTC

I give up (almost) (4.00 / 1)

The educational doom and gloom being sold has been swallowed whole by the press. It's frustrating, but it's typical.

In nearly every other sphere of public policy - environment, finance, business, foreign affairs, health care - 40 years of relentless conservative dogma and propaganda has seeped into our collective consciousness. And the press almost never slows down enough to think about these things.

Fighting back against this is a long-term project.

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

---

by: Jersey Jazzman @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 23:01:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't give up, Jazzman. (4.00 / 1)

Go have a beer. Some chocolate.

Don't give up on this.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 23:28:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not just by the press... (0.00 / 0)

I work with a lot of people, well educated people, who should know better. But they seem to have drunk the whole teachers-are-at-fault-for-everything drumbeat. When I've brought up the fallacies in what people have been hearing, I'm just met with blank stares. People, it seems, love to have a scapegoat and teachers and the NJEA are everybody's favorite scapegoat now. It's a lot easier, I suppose, than reading, thinking, and getting the bigger picture of what is wrong in our society. It's frustrating, to say the least.

---

by: Alex @ Wed Nov 02, 2011 at 02:04:35 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Wait ... (0.00 / 0)

banana Quik ... it's a real thing?  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 23:12:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It goes well with circus peanuts (0.00 / 0)

Now here's something to make you gag on your diet strawberry Yoo-Hoo:  today's Record editorial cheers the restoration of New Jersey After 3 without mentioning gorilla fighter Mr. T.  

What would we do without Jazzman?  

Link to the candy corn of journalism:

http://www.northjersey.com/new...

 

---

by: Nowlan @ Wed Nov 02, 2011 at 02:00:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The lead is plain bizzare (0.00 / 0)

"They're among the best, but they have a long way to go."

WTF?

---

by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Wed Nov 02, 2011 at 00:32:59 AM UTC

[ Parent ]