How NJ is Different From Wisconsin

You touched on a few things I left out of mine (4.00 / 1)

 In Wisconsin, the Democratic party is united, as opposed to here where we have the "Christiecrats."  As a political hack, nothing irks me more than Democrats fighting among themselves while the Republicans steamroll all over a divided party.  I've seen this in New Jersey and nationally.  

http://outspokenliberal.blogsp...

---

by: tabbycat31 @ Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 21:33:02 PM UTC

There's something worse, tabby (0.00 / 0)

And that's the very same Democrats who peeled off from core principles and the will of their party, and don't blame themselves for that as much as they blame the people who notice their defection and call attention to it. To those misguided souls, we're the ones dividing the party.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 00:54:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Recall Fails/Time to heed warning (1.00 / 1)

Sweeney/Oliver is better than Kean/DeCroce.

For all of you "throw out the bums"progressives you better heed the Wisc. results. Once the other side takes over it is hard to get rid of them.

Sweeney will prevent "a Wisconsin"from happening here.

Will Kean?

That new vagabond NJ-CAN group will only promote division with no hope of progress.

Take out the moderates in the Democratic Party and the right wing GOP will prevail.

 

---

by: firstamend07 @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 10:20:04 AM UTC

You're not paying attention, or reading (0.00 / 0)

You can jerk your knees all you want, but I didn't say anything that implied we should work towards defeating Sweeney or Oliver in a general election.

Primaries in safe districts, and Sweeney and Oliver are both in safe districts are are many others with issues, are not bad for the party and do not lead to opposition wins.

The best example is Morris County Republicans, the one county party in the state that encourages primaries.  Chris Christie beat an incumbent in a primary, then lost as an incumbent in a primary, and now is Governor.

But I don't recall any Democratic Freeholders, Assemblymembers or Senators from Morris County in the last, well, forever.

What this piece advocates is more progressives getting involved in positions of authority in the Democratic Party instead of wingeing on the sidelines.  If we start helping existing progressives get elected by huge margins and build huge warchests, then they show progressives can win and win big.

Then we take primaries to the people who are not supporting our party's ideals and platform, to show them that they will have to fight for the party.  They can't just assume our support.

That does not state, suggest or imply that we should work to defeat them in general elections.  This entire piece was about working within the party, not about breaking the party.

But, knees will jerk as they do.

---

by: huntsu @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 11:28:32 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Next response: WI Did Not Fail (4.00 / 1)

The Wisconsin Democrats took two seats out of six in an historically large recall election totaling six races.

The Senate went from a 19-14 super-majority for the Republicans to a 17-16 micro-majority for the Republicans.  

They did not get to their ultimate goal of winning back the Senate, but to call this a failure is pretty weak.  The Democrats now have momentum, and if they hold the two remaining then they have done something no other party has ever done.

That's pretty impressive.

Yes, I would prefer Sweeney/Oliver over Kean/DeCroce, but that's a false choice when there are so many good Democrats out there who could easily win in Sweeney and Oliver's districts.

---

by: huntsu @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 11:32:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Two HARD-RIGHT disctricts go left... (0.00 / 0)

And the other 4 HARD-RIGHT ditricts were thin wins (One is still questionable based on irregularities and prior, similar questions of counting improprieties) and you think progressives  need to heed a warning?

Sorry, friend, but your typically skewed perception (to the backstabbers and anti-union) can't dispute the facts: Dems took two HARD-RIGHT districts and gave the other 4 a real wakeup call.

And, when it comes to overall lean, NJ leans left, IN-SPITE of folks like you, willing to throw workers rights and democratic values under the bus.

Though I was disappointed in the 4 out of 6 results in WI, I was heartened to know that even with tens of millions of Koch dollars and hard-set republican leanings, democrats pulled out some significant victories in Wisconsin and no matter how you try to skew it, it indicates that progressives can take New Jersey back from the traitors you support or, at the least, scare them back into line.

Keep drinking the koolaid all you want but it doesn't change the fact that YOUR folks pushed too far and now have to face a backlash they never thought would come.
It started with a previously unthinkable denial of campaign support from the AFL CIO (That, based on the Building Trades temper tantrum, stunned them and their brethren) of liars who falsley claimed to support laborand it will continue with people like us, here in Blue Jersey and on the streets, demanding accountability and allegiance to party values.

MOving forward, 2012 and 2013 are going to see changes in the US Congress and NJ State that will see progressives regain power and make a real effort towards righting the ship the Christiecrats and Republicans seem hard-set on sinking.

The time of Benedict Arnolds and Right-Wing oppression of the middle class and labor are drawing to a close and your folks are just beginning to taste the flavor of democratic revolution.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

---

by: Couch Potato Politics @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 12:36:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

How was last night not a loss for Democrats? (2.00 / 1)

Wisconsin Democrats went all in last night to take back the State Senate.  

They lost.  

If you go all-in in poker and lose on the river, you still lose.  Now, I'm not saying it wasn't impressive to pick up two seats, but either way Governor Walker is going to continue is right wing assault on everything and anything progressive in the State.  

In my mind, that is losing.  

---

by: Matthew Jordan @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 13:11:03 PM UTC

context is everything (0.00 / 0)

Two staunchly Republican districts went dem in AUGUST, against tens of millions in Koch money, election info rigging and on a RECALL.
Additionally, three more wee close enough to make them sweat (repubs) and a fourth is questionable for ballot counting and given ALL THAT, you don't see the winds of change at work?

Sometimes even small victories have major implications and long-term effects. That is a win in my book.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

---

by: Couch Potato Politics @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 13:36:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

All I know is..... (2.00 / 1)

Democrats didn't win control of the State Senate and Governor Walker just signed a redistricting bill making it impossible to hold the seats we just won.  

And what, labor didn't spend millions as well?  

---

by: Matthew Jordan @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 13:55:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And Walker is likely facing his own recall in January (3.00 / 1)

The battle may be lost but the war has just begun.

A change IS coming.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

---

by: Couch Potato Politics @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 15:54:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The battle was not all lost (4.00 / 2)

The Democrats did pick up two seats in the state senate to give the GOP a VERY slim majority.

Yes Walker will be facing his own recall.  If the DPW times this right, I will be on a plane to Wisconsin after the election to help them out right through a special election (can we say Governor Feingold?).    

http://outspokenliberal.blogsp...

---

by: tabbycat31 @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 19:31:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'll tell you what loss really is. (3.50 / 2)

Loss is not fighting.
Not organizing.
Capitulating.
Cooperating.
Getting mowed over by leaders whose driving political values are destructive to your citizens.


It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 21:33:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

dems (0.00 / 0)

dems like me are glad to have a Sweeney in trenton...someone who realizes you can't continue to bankrupt NJ which is what"progressives" have and want to continue to do....
most  Dems are middle class, with middle class wages and most importantly non-union....i'm tired of union leaders who give the middle finger to taxpayers....Wisconsin will never happen here because most Dems know that most Trenton Dems and so many other elected Dems around the state just want to continue tax and spending me to death....and I'm tired of it....
So give me more Dems like Sweeney...your against Sweeney,
well i'll make sure to oppose you

---

by: punk7676 @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 16:21:31 PM UTC

Amen! (0.00 / 0)

I am with you!  

---

by: firstamend07 @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 20:33:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

punk7676 (0.00 / 0)

You know, no matter how many times you can use the word Dems in a sentence, it's easy for people to come to the conclusion you're another one of Blue Jersey's trolls. Given how much you have - in comments past and above - used phrases like "Tax and spend Dems" and call people like Jon Shure a "socialist" and say that people like Loretta Weinberg are "the problem".

In almost every comment you tell us you're a Dem. Ever notice the rest of us don't have to do that?

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 21:09:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

GOP Koolaid alert (3.00 / 1)

The reason why middle class non-union members were making good livings was because union members fought for minimum wage, child labor laws, Social Security, workplace safety laws, anti-sexual harassment enforcement, overtime laws, etc., etc., etc.

The reason why we are hurting now is that corporate America has sent jobs overseas, used technology to replace human beings, forced unpaid overtime on workers to make up for layoffs, etc., etc., etc.

Are there problems with the public workforce, pensions and benefits?  Yes, there are.  Is this the biggest problem facing the state?  Not even close.

We have towns, schools, counties and the state all performing the same services, and paying for the same service three or five times.  The duplication and confusion between the levels of state government are the biggest problem facing us, not the pay and benefits of the people who are doing it.

But Sweeney and Christie won't stand up to make structural changes.  Neither will Kean or Oliver.  They are all the old guard, and they all want to keep the structure the same way because that's how the rich keep making money off New Jersey government.

We already have more Dems like Sweeney.  They're called Republicans.

---

by: huntsu @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 21:14:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

By the way, one more thing (0.00 / 0)

When is it that progressive Democrats have actually been in control of the party or the state government?  The answer is Never.

Don't blame progressives for the mess we are in.  Progressives gave you the weekend, overtime, workplace safety, minimum wage, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc., etc., etc.

Or, more succinctly, progressives gave you the middle class.

---

by: huntsu @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 21:19:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

REAL Democrats Showed Something (3.00 / 1)

Democrats in Wisconsin showed us all something that has been missing in a lot of people for too many years; PASSION and BELIEF.

Putting aside that they were just shy of pulling off a real coup in ham-stringing one of the most brutally aggressive and disingenuous governors in the country, they showed that no matter what anyone says, average people can make real change andhave a real impact. All it requires is belief and tenacity.

The Wisconsin battle was a reach for the brass ring of reclaiming Democracy and and they succeeded in grabbing that ring. Bravo!

We are in a fight for our very way of life and the battle lines have been drawn. Some "Dems" are on the wrong side of that line and with every praise and adoration of half-measure, small "d" Democrats, they damage us and contribute to the regression this country is mired in.

This is no longer a question of "Democrats v. Republicans" but rather a question of American Idealists  v. Corporate politics. When Democrats like Stephen Sweeney can be bought by political bosses like George Norcross and ordered to attack middle class families and the working poor to the favor of tyrant governors like Chris Christie, it shows that the label means nothing and the action means everything.

Some claim Sweeney acted for "Fairness" or "Budgetary Discipline" but taking thousands of dollars out of middle-class and poor family incomes instead of going after the George Norcross insurance executives for better costing, they show their real loyalty an it isn't the "People" but rather the Power becuse further impoverishing the middle class and working poor doesn't fix the economy, it make it worse. Every dollar removed from a working families income is a dollar not spent in local businesses.

I retrospect, Wisconsin didn't give progressives the result they most wanted but it gave us hope that what we want can be achieved as long as we keep fighting, keeping talk and keep demanding accountability from those that are elected.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

---

by: Couch Potato Politics @ Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 23:01:30 PM UTC

Wisc. Wishes They Had Sweeney (0.00 / 1)

Sweeney will always make sure that every govt. entity in NJ will have to continue to collectively bargain with the majority union representative of the govt. employees.

Collective bargaining IS ALIVE AND WELL in NJ.

It is not Sweeney's fault that CWA cannot negotiate a decent contract for its members .

Wisconsin state workers would love to switch places with NJ state workers. They would love to have Sweeney assuring them of their collective bargaining rights!

---

by: firstamend07 @ Thu Aug 11, 2011 at 13:30:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What Are You Smokin' (3.00 / 1)

Why would you think the WI public sector would want a turncoat Democrat legislating away their collective bargaining rights any more than a (looks like a balding rat) R govenor and his R majority have done.

The WI voters at least have their "Democratic 14" of whom they are proud.  I am certainly not suggesting that our D legislators cross the Delaware or the Hudson.  After all, we are supposed to be running the joint, not running away from it.

The Fitzwalkerstan events and the solid Democratic opposition to the legislation galvanized the WI voters.  I just hope their enthusiasm moves them to begin a recall of Walker.

OTOH, we don't hve a solid Democratic party.  We have leaders who have gotten their positions by stealth and owe their souls to the company store.

You speak for one of them.

---

by: SmartyJones @ Thu Aug 11, 2011 at 16:37:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Collective Bargaining Alive and Well in NJ (0.00 / 0)

Wisconsin Democrats failed. Collective bargaining is in serious trouble in Wisc.

NOT IN NJ!

Collective bargaining is alive and strong in New Jersey. At every level of government unions are representing their members.

The sky did not fall!

Who has protected the right to maintain collective bargaining rights in New Jersey?

STATE SENATE PRESIDENT STEPHEN SWEENEY,that is who!    

---

by: firstamend07 @ Thu Aug 11, 2011 at 22:02:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Drop the act (0.00 / 0)

Its tired and nobody is buying it.

You support a liar, a traitior and a turncoat who sold a significant piece of the public workers RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE HEALTHCARE BENEFITS in exchange for NOTIHNG. He was made a fool and a clown by Christie and and you only reiterate that with your contemptible commentary.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

---

by: Couch Potato Politics @ Fri Aug 12, 2011 at 00:59:19 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Chicken Little (2.00 / 2)

Despite all the rhetoric CWA is currently in negotiations with the Governor to settle the contract for 40,000 state workers.

COLLECTIVE BARGAINING IS ALIVE AND WELL IN NEW JERSEY!

Despite the rhetoric CWA is currently part of the health care committee that will NEGOTIATE the new and better and fairer SHBP.

COLLECTIVE BARGAINING IS ALIVE AND WELL IN NEW JERSEY!

Now if CWA comes back with horrible agreements on either or both then maybe it is CWA leadership who should be replaced.

EXCUSES ARE FOR LOSERS!

CWA is getting paid a huge amount of money to represent state workers. Now is the time for them to earn their money!

---

by: firstamend07 @ Fri Aug 12, 2011 at 13:02:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Alive, but not well ... (0.00 / 0)

You cannot stick a knife in and then say, "See, I didn't kill it, therefore it's alive and well!"

I love how you say, "CWA is getting paid huge amounts of money ..."  As a CWA member, you are the CWA just like as an American I am the government.

---

by: huntsu @ Sun Aug 14, 2011 at 14:52:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]