A Question for our Blue Jersey Progressives:

YES! (0.00 / 0)

Senator Weinberg, I say YES!

The courts won't be deciding on this issue any time soon (I think) so I say yes, go for it, and this time we should be as organized as New York was.  

---

by: MSUTeenDem @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 04:41:41 AM UTC

Yes - (0.00 / 0)

Absolutely!

There is nothing Democratic about a Machine.

---

by: Carl Bergmanson @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 04:53:34 AM UTC

Yes (0.00 / 0)

New York provides the momentum. Even though it should not be necessary to legislate a basic human right, reality in politics says we need to do this by legislation rather than judicial affirmation.

Blog: http://www.deciminyan.org

---

by: deciminyan @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 10:13:12 AM UTC

Yes, it's a mistake to delay, defer, etc. (0.00 / 0)

I hope those against marriage equality realize they're fighting a losing battle (there's a word for this, but I'm trying not be silly).

Now what did MLK say to the clergymen who suggested "patience"?

As several others on this site have pointed out, this is the civil rights issue of our time--and it's time for all of us to choose full freedom for all.  I hope my fellow heteros will show just a bit of guts and empathy.

---

by: Nowlan @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 22:07:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

YES! (0.00 / 0)

we can do better than last time and we MUST try NOW!

activist for hire.

---

by: Jay Lassiter @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 12:10:55 PM UTC

YES, YES and YES (0.00 / 0)

Senator Weinberg, we must not sit idly by while the tide is in our favor. (not that you have ever just sat idly by on our issues, love you!) If they still can't read the writing on the wall in favor of marriage equality then they need another bill to read!

---

by: Jon Galluccio @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 12:21:50 PM UTC

Yes! (0.00 / 0)

I would like those 21 state senators on record with a vote whether or not the bill would withstand a Christie majority.

---

by: denniscmcgrath @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 12:40:14 PM UTC

typo: "withstand a Christie veto" n/t (0.00 / 0)

---

by: denniscmcgrath @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 12:42:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree... (0.00 / 0)

Put it to a vote and get people on the record. At least then they can't dance around the issue come elections.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 13:00:01 PM UTC

who knows... (0.00 / 0)

Christie strikes me as a person who might be in favor of ME 'in the closet' (or at least recognize it doesn't make a difference to heterosexual marriage), I wouldn't be surprised if he vetos it and then secretly allows an override vote by his own party.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 13:03:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Really? Based on what evidence? (0.00 / 0)

What makes you think that? He has been public in his opposition to marriage equality. As for any behind the scenes position, the evidence so far ("moderate" Republicans deciding to vote no as soon as he was elected) contradicts your statement.

---

by: Alex @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 14:26:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

just a hunch... (0.00 / 0)

he doesn't strike me as overly religous (where i believe the oppostion comes from)...
I think the public statements on marriage and abortion were more to pander for some national aspiration someday than actual core beliefs...

But you're 100% right there is absolutely no evidence to support my theory... it's just a hunch I have...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

---

by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 15:39:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Watch the tide (0.00 / 0)

As an activist I say go for it!  As a strategist I would like the goal or outcome  to be success, but  such requires a super majority in the Assembly and Senate to override Governor Christie's foreordained veto. We do not appear to be near there yet.

There should be a bill in both houses calling for marriage equality and a vote, but the larger question involves mounting an apparatus to support the bill in a robust manner which shows the strength of the movement. Our last effort in 2009-10 was led by Garden State Equality which received substantial funding and support from out-of- state organizations in order to coordinate, guide, and and enthuse the large number of volunteer supporters and to implement the media/PR work. It's not a simple or cheap effort to manage such a large scale effort and should not be launched casually. Would such an effort, even short of success, help the state court case and win more support from the general public? Or would it be viewed by others as a futile and tiresome (but noble) effort which distracts from other crises facing our legislature?

"There is a tide in the affairs of men [and women] which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune." Is the tide now likely to lead to fortune?

"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die." - Sen. Ted Kennedy

---

by: Bill Orr @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 13:10:51 PM UTC

Why don't we push for a ballot initiative? (0.00 / 0)

I know these haven't been successful in other states, but public opinion seems to be on our side.  

There is a part of me that basic civil rights shouldn't be subject to vote.  However, this could be a clear path to victory and something many Republicans are on record as supporting.  

I also think it represents a more reasonable path to victory than getting veto-proof majorities in both the Assembly and the Senate.

Thoughts?  

---

by: Matthew Jordan @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 13:40:19 PM UTC

I don't think we have ballot initiatives (0.00 / 0)

I was going to say NJ Constitutional Amendment require 3/5 of the Senate and Assembly, plus then go before the the voters, but actually you could do it with just a majority of the Senate and Assembly, you just need to vote for it two years in a row:

If the proposed amendment or amendments or any of them shall be agreed to by three-fifths of all the members of each of the respective houses, the same shall be submitted to the people. If the same or any of them shall be agreed to by less than three-fifths but nevertheless by a majority of all the members of each of the respective houses, such proposed amendment or amendments shall be referred to the Legislature in the next legislative year; and if in that year the same or any of them shall be agreed to by a majority of all the members of each of the respective houses, then such amendment or amendments shall be submitted to the people.

That's from Article IX.
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/l...

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

---

by: Hopeful @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 22:04:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

YES! (0.00 / 0)

Emphatically.

---

by: Got Kids @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 14:21:48 PM UTC

Heck yes! (0.00 / 0)

Of course.

"Justice too long delayed is justice denied."

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

---

by: Jersey Jazzman @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 14:48:51 PM UTC

I'm surprising myself... (0.00 / 0)

...by being conflicted about this. As we all know, a vote would have to be veto-proof to have any practical effect, what with Christie still governor. Failing that, I get that it's an opportunity to have people on record. But didn't we already do that last year? I can't help wondering if this will serve more to assuage the guilt, assuming they feel any, of those senators who voted no or who did not vote at all (with the same effect as a no). I know this comes across as cynical but it's hard not to ask these questions after the past two years in this state.

---

by: Alex @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 14:53:32 PM UTC

try, try again (0.00 / 0)

we might not win and that's just a fact.  but we can do better than 21 votes and we can CERTAINLY do better than the 14 we mustered last time.  besides, how many times did NY fail before they scored Equality?

activist for hire.

---

by: Jay Lassiter @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 15:16:11 PM UTC

True, but... (0.00 / 0)

...the difference was that New York had a pro-ME governor on both recent occasions, with the decisive factor being now having a governor willing to roll up his sleeves and do the hard work to get it through even with a majority GOP senate. I just can't help wondering if this will simply serve to give former no voters in the NJ senate an opportunity to cover their butts and try to make up for their vote over a year ago but with no other practical effect. I say go for it but the fact remains that with Christie in place, I can't be optimistic.

---

by: Alex @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 15:40:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Who says Christie will Veto? (0.00 / 0)

It's likely but not guaranteed. He is a politician first and foremost.

It's pretty ridiculous this didn't pass the first time and now that NY has passed and is reaping serious tourist $$$, why not?

Not to mention the careerists in the Democratic Party feel more comfortable/need to pretend they care about civil rights after wrecking collective bargaining... why not?

Is it time? It's past time. This should be done if only to wipe away the shame of such a backward corrupt party establishment who screwing up the first time.

Regards to ex-Senator Girgenti.

So... Yes.
 

---

by: DSWright @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 15:42:03 PM UTC

I'm torn, leaning Yes (0.00 / 0)

I would rather see this legislature send good bills of all stripes to this Governor and let him go on record vetoing what is good for the people of this state (though I always hope he surprises us). That's a better plan than the alternative, which is just not to send him stuff you assume he will torpedo.

So that's my Yes side.

My more trepidatious side says we already know he will veto, and the Senate is already on record, having voted on this before. I can't believe that there's a veto-proof majority (even though equality's what New Jerseyans want, and equality is absolutely our future). So, is this an exercise in doing anything more substantial than giving Steve Sweeney the chance to look like a Democrat on something? Or Jen Beck to show the respect she should to her equality-minded constituents she's no doubt heard from in her district? To give abstainers and no voters a chance to show their personal evolution on this issue?

I don't know. I think the goal has to be greater than that. The real prize is equality. And I have to ask, does a potential loss at Christie's veto pen help or hurt the ME court case? Seriously, I don't know the answer. But considering the skills and recent history between the Senate President and the Governor, if Sweeney feels like striking another closed-door deal with Christie, he can go farther than just his own vote re-think if he can convince Christie that denying marriage equality is bad for the state - for gays and straights, for Republicans and Democrats. And for people who want to be President someday. And convince him not to veto.

Then I'm a solid Yes. But I have to say I have only shaky faith in that scenario.  

It's not a particularly snappy signature, but here's what I think we need in the next NJ Democratic State Chair.  

---

by: Rosi Efthim @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 18:25:31 PM UTC

GLBT Ain't Stupid (0.00 / 0)

I would argue - and maybe some of you can back me up with hard data - that GLBT voters are probably some of the best informed voters out there.

They know who's a Janie-Come-Lately and who's been fighting the good fight for a long time. Jen Beck isn't going to score a lot of points in Asbury Park for jumping on the bandwagon at the last minute.

But I think ME proponents gain a lot with, "See, even Republican Jen Beck supports ME!"

And once you go ME, you never go back. Get them on record now, keep them in your pocket for 2013 when we end this reign of idiocy.

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

---

by: Jersey Jazzman @ Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 01:05:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

A Progressive Legislature MUST PASS PROGRESSIVE LEGISLATION!!! (0.00 / 0)

Marriage Equality is one of a large LARGE number of bills that needs to be passed.

Force Christie and the Republican lemmings to folloo w him off the cliff.  THEN hold them ALL accountable at the next election!   That's how democracy WORKS!!!

Being afraid and "diplomatic" with Republicans who are looking over their right shoulder in fear of "Tea Party" challengers is bogus.

Being aggressively progressive WILL lead to Democratic victories in NJ and throughout the nation!!!

It's not really all that complex, it's called having the courage of your convictions and being willing to stand up STRONG for what you believe in!!!

The majority of New Jeseyans are smart decent human beings and will respond favorably to a progressive agenda that IS NOT TAINTED BY MACHINE POLITICS!!!

Marriage Equality, again, is one very essential step in the dance of common human decency!

Shall we dance!!!  :-)

---

by: Nick Lento @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 18:28:08 PM UTC

Yes! (0.00 / 0)

and here's some reasons why....
http://www.njeq.org

---

by: Mike C. @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 18:32:55 PM UTC

Who are the other 5 Yes votes? (4.00 / 1)

We had 14 Yes votes before.  Beck and Sweeney make 16.  If the other 5 votes have already been reported here, I apologize for being out of the loop, but I would like to know who the other 5 votes are, because that would give me some sense about how likely or unlikely getting 6 more votes might be.

If the other 5 Yes votes are Sweeney's cronies (Van Drew, Madden, Beach, and Norcross) and someone like Paul Sarlo, then I think getting six more would be an uphill climb, but if they are people like Shirley Turner, Ron Rice Sr., John Girgenti (it would be a nice opportunity for him to redeem himself after several years of disappointing behavior), and maybe a couple of Republicans like Kip Bateman and Sean Kean, then I think that we might have a chance to win.

I see no reason why we shouldn't try regardless of the expected outcome, aside from the fact that we are going into a legislative election season when our "part-time" legislators become full-time campaigners and don't like to spend any time in Trenton, especially on an issue that requires them to be courageous.

Is there anything else important on the legislative agenda that is winnable that could be put at risk if we go forward with a marriage equality fight?  I am not saying that this issue is more important than marriage equality, but the odds of failure and success and the impact that one fight can have on another should be part of the discussion.

As far as Rosi's point about Sweeney having the opportunity to make up for his previous vote on this issue, he should know that the only way that he can make up for that is by using the power of his office to deliver the votes of the entire Democratic caucus.  Anything less is a failure of leadership.

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 19:16:38 PM UTC

I'm working on mine! n/t (0.00 / 0)

activist for hire.

---

by: Jay Lassiter @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 19:19:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Does this mean that Beach is not one of the 7 new Yes votes? (4.00 / 1)

Considering the fact that Sweeney practically cast Beach's vote for him, I am surprised that Beach isn't walking in lockstep with him now, especially considering the fact that Beach's district is much safer than Sweeney's.

The least that we can demand from Sweeney after his past disappointments is that he delivers the entire Democratic Caucus.  If you add the 9 Democratic NO votes and abstentions as well as Jen Beck's NO vote to the 14 Yes votes with the safe assumption that Linda Greenstein will repeat her predecessor's Yes vote, that gives us a total of 24 Yes votes, leaving us three votes short.

Where are those 3 votes going to come from?  Are there 3 moderate Republicans left in this state?

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 21:14:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sweeney (0.00 / 0)

will not be able to get the ENTIRE caucus to support ME. Especially with Girgenti still a senator (for now).

Also I'm not entirely sure if Rice could be persuaded to join the Yes on ME side.  

---

by: MSUTeenDem @ Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 05:03:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

If Sweeney... (4.00 / 1)

...wants to be a leader, he must lead, and in my opinion, if he wants to be forgiven for what he did in January 2010, he must use the power of his office to deliver the entire Democratic caucus.

Past leaders have used the power of their office to make Democratic legislators vote for or against legislation that they did not want to vote for or against.  Sweeney can do this now for marriage equality if he is willing to do so.

Ron Rice Sr. may not be willing to be persuaded to vote in favor of marriage equality, but his vote could be purchased for the right price.  If there is any legislator in Trenton whose vote has a price, it is Ron Rice Sr..

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 15:14:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

you honestly think Sean Kean would flip? (0.00 / 0)

First of all do you remember his horrible, patronizing, and offensive speech on marriage equality the day it came to a vote last year?  Second of all even though he will no longer be a senator soon (he is running for assembly instead), have you seen his new district?  It went from a district that had Democratic hopes if we played all the cards correctly to the ultimate lost cause (I live in the northernmost tip of his new district so I get the dubious honor of having him represent me yet again--- I am currently looking to adopt a legislative district) that includes places like Lakewood and Howell that are a lot more conservative than Asbury Park and Long Branch (his old district).

If Sean Kean flips on marriage equality, I will eat this computer for breakfast.

http://outspokenliberal.blogsp...

---

by: tabbycat31 @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 20:14:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No (0.00 / 0)

I'm just asking who the other 5 new Yes votes are so that I can better gauge the chances of getting 6 more Yes votes.

---

by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 21:04:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Assembly (0.00 / 0)

Is the support there for the Assembly to vote for it by a veto-proof majority as well?

Considering they never voted on it ever unlike the Senate, we're not entirely sure how many votes we have in that body to begin with.  

---

by: MSUTeenDem @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 19:36:15 PM UTC

YES (0.00 / 0)

The Court will answer when the Court answers.  In the meantime, press on!

---

by: kfrankiii @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 22:00:53 PM UTC

YES! (4.00 / 1)

Make Christie go on record as against basic civil rights. Send a message to the courts that they have the Legislature behind them if they rule the way that justice requires. Make it harder to back off next time we have a Democratic Governor.

Though I would be interested in hearing GSE leadership's take on it - often mere members like myself are ignorant of important political and legal calculations that aren't immediately apparent.

---

by: the_promised_land @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 22:09:09 PM UTC

Yes n/t (0.00 / 0)

---

by: Thurman Hart @ Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 22:23:08 PM UTC

YES! (0.00 / 0)

The only time you fail is when you fail to try!  Go for it!

---

by: CyberKat @ Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 12:42:04 PM UTC