Sweeney's Trojan Horse

Boo,Hoo,Hoo ! (0.00 / 1)

Oh my God, Christie opposed something at the negotiating table!

I read the press release, it appears the excuses are already starting for a failed negotiation.

You know what I say.DEAL WITH IT!

CWA should present their health proposals and talk about nothing else. If the negotiations get stalemated then so be it.

Show a little balls!

Walk away from the table! Shut the state down.

But for god's sake stop whining in public!  

If they can't handle the negotiations then get out of the way and let the legislature do it.

If Christie is not bargaining in good faith then file with the NLRB.

Either sh*t or get off the pot!    

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by: firstamend07 @ Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 17:23:09 PM UTC

Too tired to spell it out for you... (0.00 / 0)

If Sweeney is pushing to LEGISLATE there is no negotiating.

What part of that don't you get

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 18:51:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Who is "pushing" right now (0.00 / 0)

I am going to send to you the Legislative Calendar website and then you tell me where S2718 is scheduled for a committee hearing.

Do you even know how legislation is passed?

There are 4 steps before it gets to the Governor.

NONE OF THOSE 4 STEPS HAS EVEN BEEN STARTED!

Sweeney has given CWA a chance to negotiate ,if they can't force the issue at the bargaining table then maybe they have to tell Christie to  "stick it" and walk out.

But they have to stop crying and their people need to show a little resolve.

Make Chrisite talk at the table.

They now have their shot!

Here is the link:      http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/l...

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by: firstamend07 @ Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 18:59:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're being deliberately obtuse (0.00 / 0)

Your reasoning that "It hasn't had a hearing yet therefore Sweeney can't possibly want to pass it" is ridiculous.  

CWA wants to bargain it.  Christie says he's not bargaining--precisely because he thinks he can get it done legislatively.  Why would Christie think that?  If Sweeney were sending signals that there's no way in hell it would happen, Christie would be forced to come to the table.  But, quite the opposite--Sweeney introduced a bill that does Christie's dirty work for him.

Make Christie talk?  The only way to do that is for the Democrats to tell Christie he's not going to get it in the legislature.  Unfortunately, that's the OPPOSITE of what Sweeney is telling Christie right now.

File with the NLRB?  Do you even know how collective bargaining is done in the public sector?  And how long do you think it takes private sector unions to get decisions from the NLRB?  

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by: Poplicola @ Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 20:19:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

you're wrong there (0.00 / 0)

comment history shows FA07 is always obtuse,  and always belliigrent

we have no way of knowing if it's deliberate,  or involvuntary.

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by: sayitaintso @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:37:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

ouch (0.00 / 0)

lets play nice and keep to the facts.

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by: firstamend07 @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 00:48:28 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

As you seem to be following this so closely... (0.00 / 0)

... how come you missed the hushed whispers about Sweeney pressing this forward on Monday?

BTW, CWA is NOT ALLOWED TO FILE AN NLRB as a PUBLIC UNION and the only recourse is Public Employee Relations Commission (PERC) and he just stacked THAT deck at dumping Ira Mintz and putting in another of his puppets after Mintz ruled for the workers over Thanksgiving holiday issue HE CREATED.
Do you actually know ANYTHING about public worker unions?

And, what the heck makes you think that just because it isn't on the calendar, Sweeney and his turncoat crew aren't working this from the back, as NJ politics seems to thrive on that form of deal making?

And even if this doesn't come up in the next couple of weeks, how about the fact that the negotiations have begun and Christie's crew have made it clear that they WON'T DISCUSS HEALTHCARE, PERIOD.
That makes it pretty clear that even though S2718 isn't on "The Calendar", they are just gonna leave healthcare out of discussions because they EXPECT Sweeney's crap bill to come up soon enough and they can wait it out.

You're really coming across as nothing short of a Sweeney/Christie shill and show zero credibility as a progressive or even a moderately liberal.

You're responses have, thus far, been nothing short of "Leave my Stevie alone" defensiveness.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 21:40:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Maybe Sweeney Should negotiate for CWA (0.00 / 0)

Since pension reform is now " legally " off the table ,the only big issue left in state worker negotiations is wage increases,which CWA has already conceded will not happen,and health plan reform.

Since CWA seems to be "confused" as to how to proceed with Christie I suggest they Hire the State Senate President to negotiate Health Care Reform.

His idea is both fair to the taxpayer and the employee,it is certainly better than Christie's proposal.

If you have an open mind please read the comparisons in this link:

http://www.njbenefitreform.com...

I hope CWA learns to deal with Christie for the sake of their members. If not just hire Sweeney to do it!

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 13:54:26 PM UTC

So you ARE a Sweeney Shill. (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for clarifying.

Basically, all Wisconsin workers now have left to negotiate is "Wages" UNDER CAPS. How is that different from what Sweeney wants to push with his teddy bear, Chris Christie?

You're pretty much advocating a SCOTT WALKER solution in the name of Judas Escariot, er, I mean Stephen Sweeney.

You officially have zero credibility as a progressive / liberal.  

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 14:43:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Your WRONG But THIS says it better (0.00 / 0)

Rosi posted this in the Roundup" but here is a link in case you missed it:

Charlie Stiles on Legislating Benefits

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 15:31:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Understand the Bottom line (0.00 / 0)

In case you are not aware, pension reform IS NOT a collective bargaining issue. CWA gave up that right a long time ago .

In the case of health plan reform, Christie has a proposal, Sweeney has a proposal and CWA " apparently " has a proposal.

ALL the proposals are giveback proposals.

One of those proposals have to be enacted. CWA is currently at the bargaining table so cut the crap about Wisconsin. New Jersey Is not Wisconsin.

If CWA cannot come to an agreement or make Christie negotiate then they are a weak union.

THE BALL IS IN THEIR COURT. NO MORE WHINING ,NO MORE EXCUSES.

Sweeney's S2718 bill is a good, fair bill. If CWA cannot get their giveback version agreed upon they would be wise to push S2718.

One thing is for sure.If The State workers get stuck with Christie's version of health plan reform EACH AND EVERY CWA LEADER WILL BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE!  

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 19:02:54 PM UTC

Advocating for UNION killing compromises... (0.00 / 0)

... is all you are doing.

Your arguments are sell-outs and the way of the weak and subserviant.

After they sell out on health benefits as a bargaining tool, whet's left? Salaries? A couple holidays?

This is EXACTLY how you let the disease of union killing take hold...

At this rate and with "Advocates" llike your boy Sweeney, we'll all be enjoying the low income life style while we wait on the plutocratic GOP controlled "Government" to decide EVERY aspect of the economy.

Wisconsin was a wake-up call and you're crew just wants us to all go back to sleep.

The CWA isn't making excuses but you sure are for your sell-out, Sweeney.


If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 19:26:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The bottom line (0.00 / 0)

Under Sweeney's plan, public workers making less than $30,000 will receive about a 12% pay cut.  Those making $100,000 or more get a 4% cut.  That may sound "fair" to you and Sweeney, but it doesn't sound that great to anyone who actually cares about working people.

Pension has NEVER been in the scope of negotiations in New Jersey.  CWA didn't give anything up.  On the contrary, CWA got McGreevey and Corzine to negotiate over pension, even though they didn't have to.

If CWA can't make Christie negotiate?  I don't think you understand how bargaining works in the public sector.  Christie can impose conditions on almost all state workers.  

The bottom line is that you, Sweeney and Christie all agree: collective bargaining should be limited and public workers should not be allowed to negotiate over heatlh care benefits ever again.

The only thing that's clear is that you are hurting your union and you're such a coward you won't do it at a union meeting or with your real name.

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by: Poplicola @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 20:24:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Flooding the Market... (0.00 / 0)

...with your advocacy of selling out bargaining rights doesn't make it any less wrong.
Your post under;
The
real debate: Is S2718 a Fair bill?" should have been included in this
conversation so I thought I would do you a favor and join the two.

I commneted there and to summarize, you're still shilling. Kind of like the "plant" in the crowd where the snake oil purveyor (Sweeney) hands you the bottlle of aged goats urine and you swear it cured your impotance.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 12:34:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What do you want? (0.00 / 0)

The union wanted to negotiate.

Well they are negotiating.

Sweeney is not at the table. CWA has to deal with Christie and show a little backbone.

Corzine and McGreevey were cupcakes. If they cannot handle this  job then maybe they should resign from their positions.

Sweeney's S2718 is not even posted for a committee vote. CWA has plenty of time to talk at the table about " their " health plan reform.  

It is sickening to hear excuse after excuse.

The average state employee wants protection and results. They pay a lot of dues money for that service.

If the heat is too hot in the kitchen then get out.

If not go toe to toe with Christie .Maybe then CWA will gain some respect.    

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 21:52:00 PM UTC

Why is this so hard for you to understand (0.00 / 0)

Christie is REFUSING to negotiate over health care.  

It gets worse.  Christie is REFUSING to negotiate health care because he thinks he will get the law changed that says he MUST negotiate over health care.  

Christie can only do that because he's getting signals from Steve Sweeney that he will get those laws changed.  

Exactly what part of that can you not understand?

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by: Poplicola @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:02:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Do not underestimate Christie (0.00 / 0)

You have to be joking!

Do you think Christie is getting his resolve from Sweeney? You give Sweeney way to much credit.

Odds are that the Sweeney/Beck bill,if even passed would be conditionally vetoed by Christie.

You just have to understand yourself. THIS IS A FIGHT BETWEEN CHRISTIE AND CWA.

This is what CWA and everyone wanted and now it is put up or shut up time.

No more whining, no more crying.

CWA has a lot of smart lawyers and supposedly smart labor negotiators. If they fear Christie,like you seem to think they do, then maybe another union should be representing state workers.    

I however , will give the ma chance. They wanted this fight, now they have it.

NO MORE SWEENEY EXCUSES.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:11:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

NJ is not Wisconsin (0.00 / 0)

As along as Sweeney is Senate President you will never have a successful attack on union rights and union dues and union collective bargaining.

Sweeney simply wants the pension fund fixed and the health plan fixed. The Legislature has the right and constitutional obligation to spend the taxpayers money.

Christie wants draconian changes, Sweeney does not. The CWA also knows that changes must be made. They offered their own givebacks already.

In New Jersey negotiations are occurring and the unions continue to remain part of state government.

In Wisconsin the labor movement got fat and lazy and allowed the right wingers to high jack their government. Elections do have consequences.    

That can only happen in New Jersey if the Democratic bashing continues and the Kean/DeCroce team takes over.

Then you will all be crying and wishing for the days of Sweeney /Oliver to return.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:02:28 PM UTC

Sweeney's plan (0.00 / 0)

Sweeney's plan is to restrict collective bargaining rights.  His bill would make it illegal to negotiate over health care.  That's the simple truth.  

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by: Poplicola @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:04:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Lame comment (0.00 / 0)

Stop drinking the Kool-Aide. Nothing is being made "illegal" .A law would simply make it unnecessary.

CWA has always had a "Legislative Action" clause in its contract. The now infamous Article 41 which no one wants to talk about. This Article CLEARLY  gives the legislature the power to fund OR NOT FUND  any monetary items in the contract.

CWA could collective bargain all they want but if the legislature does not fund the changes then the changes do not occur.

Give the CWA people some credit! They Are big boys and girls over there. They are toe to toe with Christie now . Give the ma chance without making " Sweeney excuses" all the time.

Let us see how they handle Christie.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 22:20:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Just DUMB thinking (0.00 / 0)

A LAW makes bargaining ILLEGAL.

How many times are you willing to accept "A little off the top"?

"CWA has always had a "Legislative Action" clause in its contract. The now infamous Article 41 which no one wants to talk about. This Article CLEARLY  gives the legislature the power to fund OR NOT FUND  any monetary items in the contract."

You think Christie is going to accept that? You're delussional.
Christie has proven he is an "All or Nothing" thug who would rather throw his mother under a bus than accept a comprimise.

This is going to the mat and giving a single inch in legislation is suicide. Sweeney is just sharpening the razor and your trying to warm the bath water.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 23:22:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

health care will still be negotiable (0.00 / 0)

health care will still be negotiable.  if the state legislates that health care contributions are at 30% of the premium, you can still negotiate with your employer that the employees pay 40-50% in future contracts.

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by: southernbluedog @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 13:24:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Once a right is legislated away... (0.00 / 0)

It will NEVER come back.

It is harder to overturn a legislated item than it is to get it legislated to begin with.

every right to negotiation that is given up is one less right, PERIOD.  

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 13:43:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

i think you missed the point of my comment (0.00 / 0)

I am totally against legislating any form of employee compensation.  I think everything should be negotiated.

If the contribution rates are legislatively raised, the state/county/local governments will always attempt to negotiate something above and beyond what the state says is the minimum.  A lot of governments had been trying to negotiate higher contributions than the current 1.5% of the salary.

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by: southernbluedog @ Tue Mar 15, 2011 at 13:11:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sweeney is the biggest attack ON bargaining (0.00 / 0)

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

He isn't giving Christie "Resolve, he is giving Christie assurances that he is ready to fold for him and hand him the legislation he wants.

You're not being obtuse... that is too kind a word for your understanding (if you're not just back-loading for Sweeney with that old "repeat a lie long enough and loud enough and itr becomes truth).

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.

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by: Couch Potato Politics @ Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 23:16:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why is it (0.00 / 0)

that the ones who know least what they're talking about talk the most?  First Amend doens't have the first clue about bargaing or the process, and he refuses to think Sweeney, who introduced a bill that would make it illegal to bargain over health care, is doing anything that would impede collective bargaining.

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by: Poplicola @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 00:47:08 AM UTC

health care contributions (0.00 / 0)

When the state legislated that employees contribute 1.5% of their salary to healthcare costs, they didn't mandate that contribution start until the beginning of the next contract.  County/local governments used that law as a guideline in re-opening contracts and negotiating concessions before contracts ended.

Last year my union agreed to pay 1.5% of our salary (and some furlough time). This year we are not contributing to health care.  Next year we MUST contribute 1.5% to healthcare unless there are more changes.

I guess my point is: The 1.5% (of the salary) contribution isn't even being forced on a lot of public employees at this time.  Now the governor wants to increase our contributions even more. A 30% (of the premium) contribution level could be legislated next week. What's stopping the state from legislating a 50+% contribution rate a week later? It's not probable, but it is possible.  

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by: southernbluedog @ Mon Mar 14, 2011 at 13:31:11 PM UTC