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When bad science makes bad policy: "conscience-based" vaccine exemptions

by: Scott Weingart

Thu Mar 10, 2011 at 02:16:46 PM EST



On Tuesday, the Assembly Health Committee heard testimony on a radical proposal that would exempt from immunization requirments children whose parents have "conscientious objections" to vaccinations. The bill, introduced by Charlotte Vandervalk and cosponsored 20 other members of the Assembly, would undermine New Jersey's current and longstanding policy requiring immunization of children attending a school or child care facility in the state.

A the hearing, committee chairman Herb Conaway blocked the bill by refusing to hold a vote on it. Conaway, a physician, called the proposal a "recipe for disaster." Dr. Conaway is right.

Currently, New Jersey permits only religious exemptions from its vaccine requirements. This bill would allow an exemption to children whose parents sign a form that says that they "understand[] the potential benefits of immunization and the risks in not immunizing." The statement accompanying the bill reveals its true implications:

This bill would allow New Jersey to join with other states that grant individuals the right to manage their health or their children's health as they deem appropriate. (emphasis added)

This statement is utterly incompatible with a policy of mandatory immunization. If we allow parents to evade immunization requirements on the grounds that they are "manag[ing] their ... children's health as they deem appropriate," we will subordinate the state's vaccination requirement to each parent's decision about whether getting their children vaccinated against a particular disease is worth the costs and the percieved risks. The very purpose of a mandatory vaccination policy is to take this decision out of parents' hands.

The biggest supporters of the bill back it because they believe that the medical consensus on vaccines is incorrect. They believe that vaccines cause, or at least contribute to, autism. Scientists, doctors, and public health officials overwhelmingly reject this conclusion, and the vast majority of studies have found no link between vaccinations and autism. The anti-vaccine movement has caused vaccination rates to drop, which may be linked with recent outbreaks of pertussis (whooping cough).

What the supporters of the bill are asking for is truly extraordinary. They want the state to exempt from a regulation those who disagree with the policy findings behind that regulation. Needless to say, we rarely allow people to avoid regulation simply because they they think it is bad policy. Schoolchildren who refuse to take the state standardized test are not allowed to graduate, even if they refused because they think the state's test is flawed. If a zoning board denies you a variance to build a shed on your property, you cannot build the shed anyway simply because you think the policies underlying the zoning ordinance is dumb. "I'm a skilled driver who can travel safely at 100 MPH," is no defense to a speeding ticket. No lawmaker would seriously propose that the schoolchild, the property-owner, and the speeder should be exempt from regulation because they disagree with the policy.

While the bill's supporters may portray the bill as a narrow exception, in reality, the bill undermines the state's mandatory immunization policy. Make no mistake, the debate over this bill is really a debate over whether we should require immunizations to begin with. New Jersey's mandatory immunization policy has served the state well, and I think we should keep it. If we do change the policy, we should not change it based on the misinformation spread by the anti-vaccine movement.

Below the fold, I explore the policy rationales for immunization requirements and present a more detailed description of the anti-vaccine movement.

Scott Weingart :: When bad science makes bad policy: "conscience-based" vaccine exemptions
The policy rationale for immunization requirements

Why should we delegate the decision of whether children should recieve a vaccine to lawmakers and public health officials in the general case and pediatricians (who determine whether a medical exemption is warranted) in each particular case?

First, parents are generally much less able than doctors or public health officials to weigh the cost and benefits of a particular vaccine. They may be swayed by misinformation and biased presentations, either from well-meaning anti-vaccine activists or profit-maximizing drug companies. They generally know little about the side effects of the vaccines and the harms caused by the disease the vaccine is designed to prevent.

Second, some parents may recognize that a general policy of vaccination is rational, but still decline to spend money vaccinating their children. A few might refuse care out of personal greed. Others may choose to be free-riders, figuring that if everyone else's child is vaccinated, their children will never come into contact with the disease and that vaccination is therefore unnecessary. This is not only unfair to those parents who choose to vaccinate their children, it is also economically inefficient, because a small number of free riders can compromise herd immunity for diseases like pertussis.

Third, a parent's decision not to vaccinate a child puts individuals who, because of their age or medical condition, cannot be vaccinated. Many diseases affect with particular severity populations that cannot be vaccinated. Pertussis is very dangerous to infants, and Rubella strikes children most severely before birth (and, therefore, before vaccination).

While some (but by no means all) libertarians might deride mandatory vaccinations as nanny-statism, that policy is only one of many ways (others include compulsory education and child neglect laws) that we limit parental discretion over raising children. We limit parental discretion because we recognize that a parent's right to raise a child how he or she sees fit must accommodate the child's rights to food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and an education.

The anti-vaccine movement

The motivating force behind this bill is the belief that vaccinations cause autism. On one side of this controversy, you have the World Health Organization, national public health agencies including the CDC, the National Academy of Sciences, the AMA, and the American Academy of Pediatrics. On the other side, you have a small group of passionate and well-meaning parents with autistic children, Jenny McCarthy, a discredited researcher, and a debunked study.

The autism-vaccine controversy began in a 1998 paper published in the English medical journal The Lancet by Andrew Wakefield and 12 co-authors. The Wakefield paper examined 12 children with developmental disorders and found that in 8 of them, the onset of symptoms seemed to coincide with the administration of the MMR vaccine. Wakefield held a press conference to publicize the paper, but it initially received little coverage in the press. But Wakefield pressed on with his theory, and it eventually got traction in the UK press.

The controversy arose in the United States not around a particular vaccine, but over a mercury-containing vaccine additive, thimerosal, which was largely eliminated from vaccines in 2001. The issue was thrust into the national spotlight by David Kirby's book Evidence of Harm and an article by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. published at Salon.com and in Rolling Stone. The thimerosal theory never enjoyed any substantial scientific support, and it has been thoroughly discredited as incidence of autism has continued to increase despite the elimination of thimerosal from most vaccines. Vaccine opponents moved the goalposts, suggesting that "vaccine overload", that is, giving too many vaccines at once, is what causes autism. They have also implicated other minor vaccine components in causing autism, including glutamate, which occurs naturally in many foods like soy and cheese and is added to others in the flavor enhancer MSG.

The vast majority of scientific literature rejects link between vaccines and autism. The CDC and public health agencies in the UK and Canada also reject the theory, as do the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics.

The autism-vaccine link has caused a great deal of harm. Media coverage of the anti-vaccine movement has caused vaccination rates to decline in the US and UK. This can lead to outbreaks, particularly where the unvaccinated are concentrated in a particular population. In 2005, a rubella outbreak struck unvaccinated groups in Canada and the Netherlands.
Pertussis cases spiked in the middle of the decade to levels not seen in decades, and California is currently suffering its biggest pertussis outbreak in more than half a century. California, incidentally, has one of the most permissive immunization exemption laws in the country.

Most publications have distanced themselves from the vaccine-autism link theory, and its leading proponent has been discredited. A 2004 Sunday Times report revealed that Andrew Wakefield, the author of the Lancet paper, failed to disclose conflicts of interest and suppressed data that conflicted with his theory. In 2010, the UK General Medical Council stripped Wakefield of his license to practice medicine for professional misconduct related to the Lancet study. Wakefield's co-authors have distanced themselves from him, and Lancet has retracted the article. Rolling Stone has whitewashed the Kennedy piece from its website. Salon has also revoked the RFK article, calling the autism-vaccine link theory "debunked and dangerous."

On "Big Pharma"

One final point. Vaccination opponents are quick to paint their opponents as tools of Big Pharma. I believe this is a mistake.

Demonizing pharmaceutical companies is unpersuasive rhetorical tactic. Pharmaceutical companies are not agents of evil. On the contrary, they add an incredible amount of value to our society by researching and producing lifesaving and life-improving drugs which they then sell to members of the public. They advance science and expand the scope of human knowledge, and their contributions enter the public domain once their patents expire. This not to say that pharmaceutical companies are worthy of veneration, or that they confer benefit on society out of altruism or good will. They are corporations, and their primary goal is to maximize profits for their owners (usually, shareholders). Sometimes, a position they take on an issue will coincide with the public interest. Sometimes, it will not.

When doctors, lawmakers, doctor-lawmakers, journalists, commentators, and bloggers all share a position with pharmaceutical companies, it does not mean that the pharmaceutical companies have bought them off or improperly influenced them in any way. It may be that each of these individuals has independently come to his or her own conclusion that the policy in question does in fact promote the public interest. The latter explanation seems far more plausible to me, given the broad consensus on the utility of vaccines among doctors and scientists.

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Right-wing opposition to HPV (4.00 / 1)
The vaccine opposition of the kind I described does not have any particular ideological tilt, although much of it seems to come from the affluent left. But in the future, I expect to see increasing opposition to vaccination from the religious right, particularly as vaccines are developed to protect against sexually transmitted diseases.

The most popular piece of anti-vaccine legislation in Congress in recent years would ban states from using federal funds to implement mandatory HPV vaccinations. HPV is readily transmitted through sexual contact, and condoms do not provide complete protection. In most individuals, the virus causes no harm, but in others, it can cause genital warts and lesions that substantially increase the risk of certain types of cancer. HPV causes the vast majority of cervical and anal cancers and a substantial proportion of penile and mouth and throat cancers. As the chief culprit of cervical and anal cancer, HPV represents a significant threat to the health of women and gay men.

Many religious conservatives oppose HPV vaccination. They argue that HPV vaccination will create a false sense of security and encourage promiscuity. This argument seems implausible given the other risks associated with unprotected sex (pregnancy, HIV, other STDs). Anyone who would engage in sexual activity despite these risks would not likely change her mind because of a slightly increased risk of cervical cancer thirty years down the road.

I do find it interesting that religious conservatives resist anything that reduces the costs of sexual activity. If you believe that sexually transmitted diseases are God's punishment to the promiscuous, you will not be inclined to support measures to prevent them.


We all deserve better (4.00 / 2)
An overriding point is the incredible benefit that population-wide vaccination programs have brought us in America - an advantage that people in underdeveloped countries lack and causes them so many unnecessary deaths. It was not too many years ago when thousands of Americans died of smallpox and polio. Smallpox after decades of effort was declared eradicated world-wide in 1979. Polio which killed and maimed so many Americans has been largely eradicated in the U.S. but continues to wreak havoc in poorer countries.  

I can not imagine living in a population where public health expertise is allowed to be ignored, and unvaccinated people are free to infect others. And in an age of global travel infections can spread easily and rapidly from one country to another. We all deserve better.  

"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die." - Sen. Ted Kennedy


Government Has No Right to Harm My Child (4.00 / 1)

Vaccines provide herd immunity but primarily they provide the vaccinated person with protection from a specific disease.  It is tragic when a child or adult dies or has another debilitating outcome because they were not vaccinated against that disease.  But ultimately, a person (or their parent) should have the right to refuse to be vaccinated.  Other children who are vaccinated will still be protected from the disease.

I know the tremendous success that traditional vaccines have had in eradicating diseases and I believe that people should be encouraged to have most of the vaccines.  Those vaccines that are over 20 years old have been proven to be safe.   What hasn't been proved is whether the newer vaccines are safe and whether the multiple dose vaccines present a health risk.

Now, I'm a scientist, so when my child needed vaccines, I went to read those studies on the "safety" of the vaccines.  It is true that no link has been proved between vaccines and autism.  But it is also true that studies have not shown that vaccines are safe as compared against some objective standard.  

For example, the main rationale for one recently approved vaccine was that the time lost in productivity due to workers who had to stay home to take care of sick children outweighed the (shown) slight risks to children that the vaccine had.  Personally, I'm not comfortable when the medical and pharmaceutical community makes a decision that it is more important for me to be at work, than for my child's health to be protected.  It is for reasons like this that the anti-vaccine movement has grown so much.


Question (0.00 / 0)
You suggest that "ultimately, a person (or their parent) should have the right to refuse to be vaccinated."

Do you think a parent should have the right to refuse his child medical treatment that the child's doctors believe necessary, because the parent disagrees with the doctors?


[ Parent ]
Belief (0.00 / 0)

I have refused treatment for a loved one by the chief of medicine (for a specific department) at Robert Wood Johnson which he said was medically necessary and without it, my loved one would die within two days.   That doctor told me as we were leaving the hospital that I was making a decision I would regret the rest of my life.

We then went to a different doctor at a different hospital in Philadelphia and that doctor said the first doctor was wrong and that the proposed surgery (which had its risks) had a significant risk of killing my loved one.  Ultimately, a different (much more minor) surgery was done weeks later.  And everything turned out wonderfully.

So, when you ask,

"Do you think a parent should have the right to refuse his child medical treatment that the child's doctors believe necessary, because the parent disagrees with the doctors?"

all I can say is that there is sometimes a difference between what doctors believe  and what is true.  Sometimes a doctor is the one that is mistaken.  There are no sure fire rules that one can follow and that is why, unless a procedure is uniformly accepted (which for vaccines like for polio I believe can be argued, but not for many of the more recent vaccines), I believe parents should have the ultimate power of decision.


[ Parent ]
types of exemptions and general versus specific facts (0.00 / 0)
Note the difference between general (vaccine X does children far more benefit than harm) versus specific (if you don't do this treatment you will die) assertions of fact.  

"General" facts are the foundations for generally applicable policy. Specific facts are basis for applying the general policy in individual cases. The medical exemption essentially requires that exceptions be based on case-specific facts, not disagreement about general facts.

The anecdote you share is more akin to this hypothetical: Dr. A says you have no medical reason for not getting a vaccine, but Dr. B says that, no, Dr. A is wrong, and you have a legitimate medical reason for avoiding vaccination.

...than it is to this hypothetical: Dr. says patient has no medical reason for not getting a vaccine, but patient's parents insist that patient doesn't need a vaccine because patient eats an apple a day.

In the first case, the patient would qualify for a medical exemption to mandatory immunization. In the second, the patient would not qualify for a medical exemption, but would qualify for a "conscience" exemption under the Vandervalk bill.

So your anecdote supports medical exemptions, which are currently allowed, much more than it does "conscience" exemptions.


[ Parent ]
Not quite (0.00 / 0)

I appreciate your argument.  But when I refused the "medically necessary to save a life" treatment at Hospital A, I had no alternative medical opinion.  So I was not qualifying for a "medical exemption."  It would have been a "conscience exemption."    

[ Parent ]
Like I said Earlier (0.00 / 0)
http://www.bluejersey.com/show...

Only ONE vaccine ingredient was tested and only a handful of vaccines were tested, and NOT in multiple doses.

You have the nerve to not address this issue on the diary that began the discussion - mine.  Because you would not address any of the points I brought up.  

Your diary looks as if it were written by Merck for you.

To the Tea Party this looks like death panels for children when you take their rights away.  That is why this issue is becoming a political football when it shouldn't be.

WHY did the vaccine court award Hannah Poling millions due to her autism resulting from nine vaccines in one day? You cannot say their is no evidence for vaccine injury, it just ain't true, because the US vaccine court already conceded that in some cases autism does result from the vaccines.


One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


Re: Hannah Poling (0.00 / 0)
The case you speak of does not say what you claim it says. Poling had a rare mitochondrial disorder with an even rarer genetic mutation. The government's concession that vaccines caused her condition (which her neurologist described as "regressive encephalopathy with features consistent with an autistic spectrum disorder, following normal development", not as autism or as autism spectrum disorder) does not amount to a concession that vaccines cause autism. Her claim happened to be one meritorious claims in a sea of frivolous ones, and since that adjudication, the same court you speak of has rejected claims of several parents alleging that vaccines caused their children's autism.

Accuse me of shilling for Merck all you want. You will find that such remarks will hurt your credibility more than they will hurt mine.


[ Parent ]
You do NOT know that (0.00 / 0)
mitochondrial disorder is rare.  It is a vital clue to how other children are affected.  Sadly, the government has sealed ALL records in the case and issued a gag order on the parents.  THIS is science?

Why don't you address Hanah Poiling's Aunt's remarks? which are on MY diary.  

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Hannah WAS diagnosed with autism. (0.00 / 0)
There are genetic links to autism but the 20 fold spike just since 1980 has led researchers to the conclusion that the trigger is environmental.  

Humans just don't evolve that quickly.  Why don't you want them to continue to look for the trigger?  

Not every child is perfect. If there are some with a genetic predisposition, why do you want to risk their health?  Smug self-satisfaction?

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Being for safer vaccines does not make (0.00 / 0)
someone "ANTIVACCINE".  Being for seat belts and air bags does not make you ANTI-CAR.

Throwing the term anti-vaccine around may make you feel smug and superior but it just reveals the depths of your ignorance on this topic and is as inflammatory as the term Obamacare.  These parents want SAFER vaccines, not NO vaccines.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


Your claims (0.00 / 0)
that Dr. Wakefield were discredited are also false.  He was actually vindicated.  

The Sunday Times CEO is on the Board of GlaxoSmithKLine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi...

Conflict of interest much?

The following PEER-REVIEWED papers actually BACK UP Dr. Wakefield's conclusions:

Furlano R, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, Mc Garvey L, Thomson M, et al. "Colonic CD8 and T cell filtration with epithelial damage in children with autism." J Pediatr 2001;138:366-72.
Sabra S, Bellanti JA, Colon AR. "Ileal lymphoid hyperplasia, non-specific colitis and pervasive developmental disorder in children". The Lancet 1998;352:234-5.
Torrente F., Machado N., Perez-Machado M., Furlano R., Thomson M., Davies S., Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH. "Enteropathy with T cell infiltration and epithelial IgG deposition in autism." Molecular Psychiatry. 2002;7:375-382
Wakefield AJ, Anthony A, Murch SH, Thomson M, Montgomery SM, Davies S, Walker-Smith JA. "Enterocolitis in children with developmental disorder." American Journal of Gastroenterology 2000;95:2285-2295
Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Wakefield AJ. "Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology." Journal of Clinical Immunology, 2003;23:504-517.

The following studies actually REPLICATED his results:

Gonzalez, L. et al., "Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with gastro-Intestinal Symptoms". Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr, 2005;69:19-25.
Balzola, F., et al., "Panenteric IBD-like disease in a patient with regressive autism shown for the first time by wireless capsule enteroscopy: Another piece in the jig-saw of the gut-brain syndrome?" American Journal of Gastroenterology, 2005. 100(4): p. 979- 981.
S. Walker, K. Hepner, J. Segal, A. Krigsman "Persistent Ileal Measles Virus in a Large Cohort of Regressive Autistic Children with Ileocolitis and Lymphonodular Hyperplasia: Revisitation of an Earlier Study" (last accessed June 2007) (paper submitted for publication)
Balzola F et al . "Autistic enterocolitis: confirmation of a new inflammatory bowel disease in an Italian cohort of patients." Gastroenterology 2005;128(Suppl. 2);A-303.

BMJ, who published Brain Deer's hit piece on Dr. Wakefield, were not only COMPETITORS to the Lancet which first published Dr. Wakefield's paper, but they are involved with Merck who makes the MMR vaccine Wakefield questioned.

But it really doesn't matter what Wakefield said.  Our own vaccine court conceded that vaccines can result in autism.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


PS (0.00 / 0)
Dr. Paul Offit who is always trotted out to back vaccines and to discredit Dr. Wakefield, helped develop the Rototeq vaccine made by Merck.

Offit is their spokesboy and has made millions from his work on vaccines. Yet that fact NEVER is made known when Offit is called in as an "expert".

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Re: Wakefield (0.00 / 0)
If his study hasn't been discredit, why did Lancet revoke it and why did the UK's disciplinary board for doctors revoke his license? Must be part of the grand Big Pharma conspiracy, eh?

[ Parent ]
The scientists involved in the paper (0.00 / 0)
were threatened and retracted the paper.  They did NOT retract the scientific conclusions of the paper, which have been supported by other researchers in 5 other countries.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

[ Parent ]
Here is Dr. Wakefield addressing the issue himself. (0.00 / 0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...


One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

[ Parent ]
Your studies (0.00 / 0)
Based on their titles, the studies you cite seem to indicate a link between certain gastrointestinal symptoms and certain neurological symptoms, not between vaccines and autism or ASD. Does everyone who finds such a link bury the lede, or do the papers not really say what you claim they say?

[ Parent ]
The word AUTISM (0.00 / 0)
in the studies means nothing to you?

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

[ Parent ]
I was looking more for VACCINE... (0.00 / 0)
...and I wasn't seeing it anywhere.  

[ Parent ]
The vaccine link is that (0.00 / 0)
the children with both autism and gastrointestinal symptoms, the thing they had in common was this:

The strain of measles virus all had residing in their systems was from the same vaccine.  These children had all had the same vaccine.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
The MMR vaccine prescribing info (0.00 / 0)
There ARE adverse events.  Even Merck admits this.

http://www.merck.com/product/u...

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


The autism-vaccine controversy did not (0.00 / 0)
begin with Dr. Wakefield in 1998.

It actually began ten years earlier.

In 1988, the MMR was introduced in the UK.  And autism rates shot up in Scotland 18%.  Blaming Dr. Wakefield is convenient for you. Shoot down one guy, Tada, PR problem fixed. But too many parents believed this link from their own experiences way before they ever approached Dr. Wakefield.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


Exactly whose child are they? (4.00 / 1)
I opposed - and continue to oppose - the mandatory flu vaccine because there has not been a single study to validate any effect of mandatory flu vaccines. Every large scale outbreak of flu in recent years has been from strains that were not protected against by that year's vaccine. Meanwhile, the reactions to the flu vaccine can be very severe, including sudden death.

I did not vote for anyone to take over making medical decisions for my child. I'm ready to be a responsible parent and keep my child home when he is sick. And I am ready and able to provide any and all medical care that child may need.

Why is it okay to not vaccinate a child because I object to the science involved, but it is okay to not vaccinate because it will make Jesus cry? If the state can decide that my child must be vaccinated, then what else can they decide about my child?


They're your children... (0.00 / 0)
...but the state can regulate how you raise them.

We can have a discussion about whether any one vaccine should or shouldn't be mandatory. But that is a different question than the one at issue here, namely, whether the state should have the ability to mandate vaccinate where science shows that the benefits of mandatory vaccination sufficiently outweigh the costs. Perhaps you think the answer to that question is no, in which case you should support this bill. But if you think the answer to that question is yes, you should oppose it.

Allowing parents who disagree with generally applicable findings of policy (what lawyers call "legislative facts") underlying a regulation to evade the regulation turns the regulation from a mandate to a mere suggestion. It would effectively give individual citizens a veto over public policy.

The state places all kinds of limits on your ability to raise your child as you see fit. Sometimes, those standards are couched in general terms like "reasonableness," while others prescribe specific action. You are required to provide adequate food, shelter, education, and medical care. If you do not, not only may your child may be taken away from you, but you may face criminal prosecution. The state can, and I would argue should, override a parent's refusal to consent to medical treatment of a child. You should not be able to keep your child from receiving potentially life saving chemotherapy for leukemia merely because you think herbal remedies are a better treatment. If a state can require a child undergo prescriptive health treatment, why should it not be permitted to require prevention?

I'm no fan of religious exemptions to regulations designed to protect public health or safety. But we have a long tradition in this country of accommodating religious beliefs. Religious organizations are afforded special treatment with regard to land use and access to prisoners. Educational, scientific, or non-religious charitable organizations are afforded no such protection.

Finally, being a "responsible parent" and keeping your child home from school may not be sufficient to stop the spread of disease. Depending on what disease we are talking about, a person may be contagious without displaying symptoms.  


[ Parent ]
Think about what you are saying (0.00 / 0)
If a state can require a child undergo prescriptive health treatment, why should it not be permitted to require prevention?

For one thing, because allowing the government to mandate preventative actions is akin to pre-emptive warfare declarations. It isn't meant to fix any problem that exists. It is meant to fix a problem that might one day exist.

Diet is one of the leading causes of health problems in the United States. By your reasoning, the government has the obligation to set up nutritional guidelines which I, as a parent, must either follow or face prosecution. I must make my child exercise properly, including a regimented warm-up routine, all because it has a predictable benefit to the child's health.

Government must justify its intrusion into the private sphere; people should not have to justify their desire to not have the government intrude into their lives.

There is an ocean of difference between outlawing child abuse or even neglect, and outlawing an informed choice not to pursue a specific course of medical treatment. If a parent has watched their child endure the anguish of chemotherapy and radiation, and all indications point towards further treatments being ineffective, why should the parent NOT have the right to discontinue treatments and nurse their child through the remaining time of hell on earth? Why should the government have the power to step in and say, "No - there is a treatment available, and therefore you MUST continue to subject your child to treatments that would be considered torturous in any other circumstances."?

There is also a world of difference between allow a church to get a zoning variance or tax exemption and allowing them visitation rights and deciding that they can put the public's health at risk. If immunizations are deemed necessary to public health, then the number of Jesus' (or Yahweh's or Shiva's or Buddha's) tears shed over them should be immaterial. It certainly should not be placed above a parent's informed decision.

I mean, I'm a person who is on the record over and over arguing for faith-based arguments in politics. But I do not believe that faith should hold a prestiged place in politics above scientific research and an informed and intelligent decision.  


[ Parent ]
Isn't it akin... (0.00 / 0)
to public smoking? If you can outlaw public smoking using the rationale that it harms others, I'm thinking you can apply that logic to vaccinations and public schooling.

After all, no one is saying that all children MUST be vaccinated. I think the law says that if you want to be in public schools, then, in that case, you must be vaccinated.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
Public Smoking Demonstrably Harms Others (0.00 / 0)

The reason that the state can ban public smoking is that second-hand smoke provably harms others.  So by choosing to smoke in a public space, it can be argued that you are harming others.  The government has the right to ban harmful actions in public spaces.

Vaccination is similar but different in that the government is making it illegal for you to do nothing.  And the harm one does to other children by not vaccinating is less clear (one would need a child who was vaccinated to be infected by your nonvaccinated, but infected child for you to have done harm).

The entire "it's just for public schools that you need to be vaccinated" is a horrible way that government intrudes into everyone's life.  It's one reason I see trust and support for government (such as the Tea Party) growing so much in the US.  Here it is eroding support for pubic schools.  


[ Parent ]
Error (0.00 / 0)

Sorry,  that last line should have been:

" It's one reason I see distrust and lack of support for the government (such as the Tea Party) growing so much in the US.  Here it is eroding support for pubic schools. "  


[ Parent ]
If you don't want your child at risk (0.00 / 0)
from these diseases then vaccinate your child, but don't say me not vaccinating my child risks YOUR kid.

Your kid just got the vaccine, right?  

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
I could counter with (0.00 / 0)
if you don't want the vaccines, then don't enroll in public schools, there's a certain risk society demands everyone take to undergo public education.



"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
Property Taxes (0.00 / 0)

I think you should then refund school property taxes for people whose children are unvaccinated.  It's not right for government to take money from people for public schools and then not allow the children to attend the schools.

[ Parent ]
That's a whole... (0.00 / 0)
different debate.

Plenty of people who don't plan on having children would love to have the school portion of their taxes refunded.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
Not different ... (0.00 / 0)

Government taxes property to fund public education because that's a public good.   Government shouldn't then be able to put restrictions on the right of people with kids to then use those schools.  

There are already provisions for people with no children not to pay schools taxes.  Look at age-restricted housing for example.  They don't pay school taxes.


[ Parent ]
Don't they? (0.00 / 0)
(as a total aside)

I thought the advantage in age restricted housing was the idea that the inhabitants would not have children in the school system (based on their age), but still would contribute to the tax base.

That's why so many towns wanted that housing I thought, all of the property taxes, but none of the students.

Is that generally the case? No school taxes?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
Municipal Taxes (0.00 / 0)

They pay municipal and county taxes, but not school taxes.  At least the 55+ age housing.


[ Parent ]
Maybe... (0.00 / 0)
in select developments that's the case.. But in general.. I think these guys pay ALL the taxes...

I can't find a definitive statement... but this link has units and lists their taxes... if these taxes are only muni and county, (1/3rd of the bill), the regular bills would be astronomical.

http://www.roxanneardary.com/o...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
Yes, if in public schools (0.00 / 0)
So if you are wealthy enough to afford home schooling or private school, you can be exempt. Or I could either give up my job or leave my four year old twins at home alone for eight hours.

So - what part of that is voluntary again?


[ Parent ]
Think about what I said (0.00 / 0)
Disease is an extant, not speculative public health threat. If we do not vaccinate against pertussis, more children will get sick with pertussis. Mandatory vaccination is meant to fix a continuing problem, one which exists now and will continue to exist in the future unless we act to stop it.

By your reasoning, the government has the obligation to set up nutritional guidelines which I, as a parent, must either follow or face prosecution.

You appear to misunderstand my argument. I do not argue that the government has an obligation to regulate anything. I simply argue that it is reasonable for the government to regulate certain aspects of childrearing. I think government should regulate children's (and all citizens') diets, but not through bans or quotas on unhealthy food, which would be extremely costly to implement and restrict not only the liberty of parents to make choices for children, but for adults to make choices for themselves (I view the latter as far more important than the former). The more efficient way to regulate children's diets is through taxation of unhealthy foods (e.g. "juice drinks and sodas").

The hypothetical you present in which a child's cancer does not respond to chemotherapy is more akin to the medical exemption than to the general case. If the benefits of treatment do not clearly exceed the costs, it is proper to leave the decision to the informed discretion of the parents (informed meaning arrived at explanation by doctors of advantages and disadvantages of a course of treatment and its alternatives).

You speak often of parents' making "informed decisions" regarding children's medical care. But too often these decisions would be uninformed, because they would be influenced by pseudoscientific claims (e.g. that vaccines cause autism) pushed by a vocal and well-meaning but misinformed group.

There is also a world of difference between allow a church to get a zoning variance or tax exemption and allowing them visitation rights and deciding that they can put the public's health at risk. If immunizations are deemed necessary to public health, then the number of Jesus' (or Yahweh's or Shiva's or Buddha's) tears shed over them should be immaterial. It certainly should not be placed above a parent's informed decision.

I mean, I'm a person who is on the record over and over arguing for faith-based arguments in politics. But I do not believe that faith should hold a prestiged place in politics above scientific research and an informed and intelligent decision.

As I said before, I don't disagree with any of this. I refer to RLUIPA merely to point out the special treatment religious organizations receive in this country, and to suggest that in light of this, we should not be surprised that the state also permits religious exemptions to mandatory immunization. This is a positive, not a normative, argument.


[ Parent ]
It's arguments like this (4.00 / 1)
that make normal people hate liberals. The government should determine my diet by preferential taxation? Not only no, but hell no.

And that is the problem when anyone decides that the objective of government is to save people from their own decisions. Once one action is outlawed, how is another not to follow?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

The reason we have a government is to protect our right to live a free life. Not to decide how that life must be lived - which would be the opposite of freedom.

I also object to the line of reasoning that goes, "SOME people aren't really informed, so therefore even those that are must have their rights limited."


[ Parent ]
But whose decision is it? (0.00 / 0)
If you object to the taxation of junk food, you must object to taxation of tobacco and alcohol, which are founded upon the same premise. You must also object to cap-and-trade or a carbon tax.

Mandatory vaccination laws do not so much save people from their own decisions but save people from the decisions of others. Children do not make the decision to get vaccinated or not, the parents make the decision for the children. The liberty you defend is the liberty to do as one pleases. The liberty you should be defending (if you want to argue against mandatory vaccination laws) is the liberty to raise one's children as one pleases. I think the government has much greater latitude restricting the latter liberty than the former. I do not think this belief abnormal; I would argue that it puts me squarely in the mainstream, for whatever that's worth.

I think you should be allowed to tattoo a swastika on your face; I do not think you should be allowed to do the same to your children.

I think you should be permitted to use tobacco; I do not think you should be permitted to give your children tobacco to use.

I think adults should be able to decide to drop out of school and end their formal education whatever their grade level, but I do not think young children should be permitted to do the same or that parents should be able to make that decision for their child.


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
The liberty you defend is the liberty to do as one pleases
I'm not sure of any definition of "liberty" that does not include this. If it did, then it would not be "liberty."

The liberty I am defending is the liberty to make medical decisions for one's own child. Period. I think the state has the right to step in for some cases - at the point where a child's life is in danger. Vaccinations just don't reach that level.

And yes, I do think it is wrong to preferentially tax tobacco and alcohol, and I think cap and trade is also wrong on top of not actually addressing the problem. But those are very different arguments about very different actions. Despite your attempt to build a strawman to make this about everything in the world, it is simply about a parent's ability to make medical decisions on behalf of their child.  


[ Parent ]
Should the Government Ban Meat Eating? (0.00 / 0)

There is at least as much evidence that a meat-eating diet is harmful to a person's health as there is that vaccines are beneficial.  Given the medical costs associated with heart disease, heart attacks, and cancer, diseases that are associated with a meat diet, shouldn't the government make the eating of a meat diet illegal?

The same type of arguments would seem to apply. Eating a meat diet causes harm to others as society apportions many financial resources to both subsidize the meat industry and for the medical costs it creates.  These resources could be allocated elsewhere and benefit humanity if noone ate meat.  

And let's not forget that we are unnecessarily killing animals in order to eat them.   Surely animals have rights that should be respected.


Reworking your question (0.00 / 0)
The question you should really be asking is this: "Should the government ban parents from feeding their child an all-meat diet?"

You can have a little meat without suffering significant adverse effects to your health. But a child either has or has not gotten his shots. There is much less room for "in moderation" when it comes to immunization than when it comes to food.


[ Parent ]
The FDA is BROKE (0.00 / 0)
At the heart of this debate is that fact that the FDA is broke. Not broke in the sense that it doesn't have any money. Broke in the sense that it has lost credibility with the public.

I watched an invetigative journalism story reporting on "clinical trials" being run out of a blighted afforable housing complex in what amounted to a crack house. There wasn't even a tracking system in place to prevent people from participating in multiple trials.

Big Pharma, contrary to your claim of "researching and producing lifesaving and life-improving drugs which they then sell to members of the public" spends the vast majority of its money on advertising and creating "me-too" drugs designed to skirt patent protections. Most of the life-saving and life improving drugs  invented over the last century have been invented at research hospitals and academic institutions with the help of taxpayer money through grants and scholarships.  


Osteopathic medicine (0.00 / 0)
as I understand it, relayed to me by my childrens previous osteopathic pediatrician, it was the lead or mercury (can't remember which) in the suspension solution that caused the problems. Have the pharmaceuticals ever reserched this? Probably not! They would prefer the issue just go away. And they're probably paying allot of money to help that happen

[ Parent ]
regulatory capture (0.00 / 0)
The pharmaceutical industry may have captured the FDA. But has it captured the CDC, IOM, AMA, and AAP as well? Because they all agree with the FDA on vaccines. It seems implausible to me that Big Pharma has conquered all of those entities as well. But perhaps I am just naive.

[ Parent ]
Scott, you still have not answered (0.00 / 0)
my question, why do all live vaccines these days - including the MMR contain an additive (since 1982) that is the very compound BLOCKED by the latest autism drugs?

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

here's your answer (0.00 / 0)
First, you offer an explanation to a nonexistent phenomenon. Studies have shown no link between vaccines and autism. I don't think proper application of the scientific method includes formulating hypothetical mechanisms to explain observations that you haven't made but wish you had.

Second, if glutamate causes autism, it seems to me that would implicate food, not vaccines. It makes me wonder where all the anti-soy, cheese, and MSG campaigners are.

Third, even if your mechanism turns out to explain a phenomenon which hasn't even been observed, it doesn't follow that even children sensitive to glutamate should not receive vaccines. This would only follow if vaccines would cause more harm than good in this particular population, something which you haven't shown and which it is not at all clear is the case.

Finally, if glutamate is the "poison" Charlotte Vandervalk ranted about, then I'm curious...what does she eat?


[ Parent ]
You clearly never even read a damn thing (0.00 / 0)
I wrote in my diary.  You'r a damn troll.

Glutamate is in the diet AND THE DAMN VACCINES.

Which is why children do better on a gluten-free casein free diet.


One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
The "Science" behind the scare has been debunked (4.00 / 1)
s much as I sympathize with folks whose children are stricken with autism, i can't accept that anyone still uses the "Findings" of Andrew Wakefield to justify this movement. His "study" of MMR vaccine (which contains no thimerosal) and autism.

Given the possible horror story of NOT getting vaccines that wouold most likely occur, I think the anti-vaccine campaign is as nonsensical as the right wing accusation that public workers are the cause of our economic condition.

One of the greater truths not talked about is that the "Autism" numbers are greatly effected by the recatagorization of previously misdiagnosed conditions to now being called "Autism Spectrum" symptoms.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



It is certainly not been "debunked". (0.00 / 0)
Show me the large scale study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids.

You can't.

Show me safety studies done on any other ingredient besides thimerasol?  

You can't.  They haven't been done.

Nothing infuriates a scientist like me more than non-scientists throwing around the word science as if they know what it means.  

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Please stop... (4.00 / 1)
with you are a 'non scientist' and not entitled to an opinion. As 'a scientist', I'm offended.

Everyone has the ability to read the studies and form logical conclusions.


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
The problem is (3.00 / 1)
the proper studies haven't been done. And there is a concerted effort to make sure they never will be.  THAT is what the issue is here.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.

[ Parent ]
Studies (0.00 / 0)

If safety studies had been started back in 2001 when a lot of the controversy was starting, we'd have results by now.  It's too bad that the government doesn't seem to want to do those studies.


[ Parent ]
Studies (0.00 / 0)

If safety studies had been started back in 2001 when a lot of the controversy was starting, we'd have results by now.  It's too bad that the government doesn't seem to want to do those studies.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you there... (0.00 / 0)
Do the studies. I don't think anyone here is against more information.  

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

[ Parent ]
Vaccines were recalled in Canada (0.00 / 0)
because they resulted in meningitis.

http://www.newsinferno.com/leg...

Others were recalled because of sterilizations problems.  

Vaccines HAVE been recalled in the past.  They aren't safe as mother's milk for everyone all the time.  More science is needed, and less circling of the wagons, please.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
maybe not as safe as mothers milk... (0.00 / 0)
...but perhaps as safe as cow's milk, which has also been recalled in the past.

[ Parent ]
Hundreds and thousands of years... (0.00 / 0)
... of studies (plagues, disease, pestilence) show that NOT vaccinating kills millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions. The study is called history and before penicillin, simple infections killed. Before vaccinations, a flu was almost always a deadly epidemic, yellow fever was regionally destructive (see Philly in the 18th century).

I love my kids and I vaccinate them BECAUSE I love them. They are happy, healthy and disease and autism free. Had they developed autism, maybe I would be angry and looking for someone or something (besides nature) to blame but as there is zero scientific proof and my cries of the evils of vaccines would have seemed no less unfounded and no more useful.

Disease kills enough as it is. Imagine how much worse if there were no vaccines.

Again, I sympathize with parents of autistic children but of all the options, not vaccinating is a proven fact that you would be gambling with death while vaccinating is still not proven, in any science based research, to be the causative influence to autism.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



[ Parent ]
It's statements like this that hurt vaccination efforts (0.00 / 0)

History does not show that vaccines are safe.  If that were the case, we wouldn't need the FDA or CDC.   If the safety of vaccines has been scientifically shown, let's see the science.  

[ Parent ]
Nothing is 100% safe... (0.00 / 0)
But my point is that NOT vaccinating is absolutely a worse option than not vaccinating.

Cars aren't always safe but we drive, food isn't always safe but we eat, walking to Grandma's house isn't always safe but we go.

We have safety devices in place to make things as "safe as possible".

As for the Science", well... Polio, Yellow Fever, Measles, Mumps and Rubella... These were epidemic creating diseases that were highly devastating and now, with vaccines, are either mostly gone or so isolated and insignificant. That is science you can't argue with.

Until there is a hard study with real results that can be quantified, the argument that vaccines cause autism is still unproven and should not be used as an argument to scare families from exposing their children, and the community at large, to resurgences of some pretty scary diseases.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



[ Parent ]
Here we go again, round and round (0.00 / 0)
The parents are not happy because studies haven't been done on more than one vaccine ingredient and none have been done on giving more than one vaccine in a day.

Prior to 1980, vaccines were not raising any warning signs in regards to autism.  SOMETHING CHANGED.

Since Scott insists on discussing stuff here instead of answering any of my points on my diary I will reprint what Hannah Poling's aunt wrote after her niece won an award in vaccine court because she now has autism as a result of receiving 9 vaccines in one day:

Statement of Margaret Dunkle
Senior Fellow, Center for Health Services Research and Policy, George Washington University Director, Early Identification and Intervention Collaborative for Los Angeles CountyRecipient, American Academy of Pediatrics' Dale Richmond Award for Outstanding Achievement in the field of Child Development
May 12, 2008

Federal Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee

My name is Margaret Dunkle. Some of you know me through my current position as Senior Fellow with the Center for Health Services Research and Policy at George Washington University, and some from my prior work running policy seminars on Capitol Hill.

Some of you know me as recipient of the American Academy of Pediatrics' Dale Richmond Award for outstanding achievement in the field of child development, or for the collaborative efforts I direct in Los Angeles County to ensure all children receive good developmental screenings and effective follow-up.

More recently, some of you have come to know me because my nephew's daughter, Hannah Poling, is the little 9 year old girl from Athens, Georgia who was the subject of a case the government conceded in vaccine court.  The nine vaccines Hannah received on one day in July of 2000 significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.  Indeed, Hannah has autism, with a clear DSM-IV diagnosis based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

I believe in a strong and safe immunization program.  Yet, every day more parents and some pediatricians reject the current vaccine schedule.  I am concerned that many people are missing Hannah's clearly scribbled handwriting on the wall.  She has provided a critical clue (mitochondrial dysfunction) and a historic opportunity for our public health leaders and policymakers to act responsibly and decisively - undertaking serious science to address the very real concerns so many parents and families are raising.

Hannah's condition is not rare.  The best evidence available strongly suggests that at least 7%, and perhaps as many as 20% or 30%, of children with autism have mitochondrial dysfunction similar to Hannah's.  With one in every 150 children on the autism spectrum, these issues are both urgent and important.

Now that we know this, it is time to follow the prestigious Institute of Medicine's 2004 report that said:

"Determining a specific cause [for autism] in the individual is impossible unless the etiology is known and there is a biological marker.  Determining causality with population-based methods requires either a well-defined at-risk population or a large effect in the general population."

Mitochondrial dysfunction defining an autistic subpopulation and the role of neuro-inflammation in autism are not esoteric theories. They are real leads that need to be quickly followed.

I urge you to support the following recommendations that reflect your Committee's mission to coordinate, monitor, and recommend changes concerning federal autism efforts.

#1 First and most importantly... With Marshall Plan speed and focus, I recommend a new, intense basic science research program to get to the bottom of what is going on with the many Hannahs out there - specifically focusing on the role of mitochondrial dysfunction and neuro-inflammation in autism.

How many Hannahs with mitochondrial dysfunction are there? 4%?, 7%?, 10%?, 20%?  Where do these dysfunctions come from?  How do they work?  Can the negative effects be undone or limited?

This research must be bold, going wherever the science takes it, with nothing off the table.

I estimate $200 million will be needed to jump-start this research.  This money must be a new or redirected appropriation, not borrowed or taken from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).

#2 Quickly find ways to screen for and identify the subset of children like Hannah for whom vaccines can cause or exacerbate mitochondrial damage and lead to symptoms of autism.

For example, start screening the siblings of children with autism to identify biomedical markers that could lead to screening tests and treatment.

#3 Piggyback new research onto existing studies to answer important questions about autism, vaccines, mitochondrial dysfunction and neuro-inflammation.  For example:

Test alternative vaccine schedules and frequencies through the National Children's Study and use this data set of 100,000 children to get longitudinal data on these issues; and

Build new analyses into existing studies and cohorts of patients with known mitochondrial dysfunction - such as research already underway at Hopkins, the Cleveland Clinic Foundation and Columbia.

#4 Institute an immediate nationwide initiative to spot children, like Hannah, who have adverse vaccine reactions and speed them into intense early intervention (specifically, the federal IDEA Early Intervention program for children ages 0-36 months and the Preschool Education program for children ages 3-5).

An important corollary is to strengthen the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) so that it actually does the job it was set up to do - collecting information about adverse events, including "side effects," that occur after the administration of vaccines.

#5 Reform and improve the current vaccine schedule and practices to ensure they are as safe as they possibly can be.  For example, examine the number and frequency of vaccines, use of combo vaccines, preservatives used, and ages administered to identify changes that would minimize damage to children, especially susceptible children such as Hannah Poling.

It is significant that the federal Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices' recently downgraded its preference for a MMRV vaccine (four-vaccines in one shot: measles, mumps, rubella and varicella) to "no preference" because of increased seizures among children receiving the MMRV.

#6 Update the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.  For example:

Allow parents longer than three years to file, especially given the newly identified "mitochondrial dysfunction" implications of the Hannah Poling decision and because we want parents and families to devote 100% of their energy to early intervention as soon as they learn their child has a problem; and

Update the list of "table injuries" to reflect the emerging discoveries about autism, mitochondrial dysfunction and immunological disorders.

#7 Improve the way the federal government approves and monitors vaccines and vaccine safety - perhaps establishing an independent agency (separate from the Centers for Disease Control, which also runs the National Immunization Program) to research, approve, and monitor vaccine safety and effectiveness.

****

I am proud that my family is providing hope and voice to many families across our country who have their own Hannahs.  I am also proud of their leadership to nudge those of us who care about good public health and good public policy to do the right thing and to do it right.

A little 9-year-old girl has raised incredibly tough and important questions.  Your challenge, as leaders concerned about autism, is to tackle these issues in a way that is effective and unflinching - and that responds to her clear scribbling on the wall with equally clear advances in science and improvements in immunization practices.

If you want more kids vaccinated, then address the parents fears and do the studies they have been asking for.  Don't tell them to sit down, shut up, and stick out their child's tiny little vulnerable forearms.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
i am glad.. (0.00 / 0)
....my folks vaccinated me as a kid.  seems like it was the smart and healthy and civic-minded thing do do.  I know parents are really super-sensitive about this and it's really emotional, but not for me.  

activist for hire.Follow jay_lass on Twitter

When we were kids the vaccines (0.00 / 0)
were not the same as now. One of the things now driving up the cost of education which affects us all - as you will agree - is the cost of special education for the children with special needs like autism we have now.  

I don't have kids, and my vaccines didn't hurt me either, but something is different now, and the costs are astronomical.

What upsets me is that nobody is looking at the actual real scientific science and that vaccines now contain a substance the autism meds block - the elephant in the room and on my diary that Scott refuses to address.  

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Your over-simplifying (0.00 / 0)
The re-definition of "Autism Spectrum" (more kids re-labled), population growth (more kids to count), environmental factors like pollutants in water and foods, genetics.... All of these could very well define why there are "More" kids with "Autism".

40 years ago they just called them "retarded", "slow" or a myriad other names for the then unknown malady. Centuries ago, before vaccines, what were the percentages of children sent to "facilities" for the same afflictions we now call autism?

Simplifying the matter by saying "There are more kids now than ever with autism" discounts all the above and doesn't validate the accusation that the vaccines are doing it.

Furthermore, a JURY finding for a plaintiff in a lawsuit is 95% perception of emotion, 4% lawyers skills and 1% understanding the science. Using a jury finding as a proof that, "Yup, it's the vaccinces" is the same as finding George Bush was a great president because he won an election. Numbers don't make the statement correct and a jury finding doesn't mean the science is proven or disproven either but that the jury was swayed by testimony of an emotionally invested relative.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



[ Parent ]
The problem with your stand is this: (0.00 / 0)
Vaccines were not a problem until Canada introduced a new MMR from Merck.  That MMR vaccine, called Trivirix was withdrawn in 1988, just two years later due to reported adverse reactions.

At the same time, in the UK, in 1988, they were considering whether to introduce the same MMR vaccine now called Pluserix.  Even though it had already been withdrawn in Canada due to adverse reactions.  Instead of using the safer vaccines, the ones not linked to adverse reactions, they slapped a new name on Trivirix, now called Pluserix and proceeded to use the cheaper vaccine.

In Scotland in just one year - autism rates jumped 18%.  The number of adverse reaction reports skyrocketed in the UK just as they had in Canada.  Just as predicted, really.

Quietly, without fanfare, the UK withdrew the MMR Pluserix vaccine in 1992, about the same time (1993) that Japan ALSO noticed problems with the MMR and withdrew it THERE.

In three separate countries, MMR vaccine was introduced since 1986 and withdrawn by 1993 for adverse reactions.

Fast forward five years.  Parents who feel their ill childen were injured by vaccines approach Dr. Wakefield.  He replicates results found 14 months earlier independently and without his knowledge by other doctors.

The children were found to have the same strain of measles virus from the same vaccine.

He writes a paper - asks questions, does NOT link autism to vaccines.

Shortly after, some in the UK are smarting and mortally embarassed over having approved the MMR Pluserix vaccine to disastrous results and having had to withdraw it.  One of these who approved it is Professor George Nuki whose son, while working as the Sunday Times Newsroom editor, decides to hire Brian Deer, who then immediately makes the "expose" of Dr. Wakefield his new life's work.

The guy who has been trying to say that the autism=vaccine link started in 1998 with Dr. Wakefield, was hired by a guy whose dad was responsible a decade earlier for approving a vaccine in the UK already KNOWN to result in meningitis in Canada.

Is this entire smear against parents and doctors who want the MMR investigated more simply a ham handed attempt by some associated with the Pluserix disaster to save face?  

The vaccine autism stories began in 1988, NOT 1998. They began when the Pluserix vaccine was introduced in the UK and quickly withdrawn.

This isn't about Dr. Wakefield and one guy deciding that vaccines cause autism. This is about heartlessness and cutting corners in medical policy, that resulted in injured children.  That one decision by the UK Committee on Safety of Medicines that put the British pound above consideration of children's health caused the quick erosion of parents confidence in the value and safety of vaccines.

It is going to take a LOT more than vilifying one guy ten years later to undo the damage to vaccine policy that their "callous disregard" has done to vaccine programs around the world.

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
So there was no Autism in Canada before that? (0.00 / 0)
And this all still falls in line with the "re-classification" of previously unlabled or mis-labled chidlren to being "autism spectrum".

There are even some suggestions to consider add or adhd as all being "autism spectrum" too.

We used to call these kids "Hyper" or "Sugar fueled" or "un-challenged"...

Still no "Science", just anecdotal or circumstantial evidence.

I agree that "Big Pharma" is a pretty cold and profit driven machine but we're still talking in opinion, hear-say and circumstantial evidence.

If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



[ Parent ]
Prior to 1980 (0.00 / 0)
there were less than 10 cases per 10,000 children.

In 1982, vaccine ingredients changed and makers started coming out with the multiple vaccines - which they released by 1986.

There are now nearly 1000 cases per 10,000 live births.

Something changed and you don't think we should look for what that is exactly?

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
Again, CLASSIFICATION changed (0.00 / 0)
Prior to 1980, the determining factors weren't considered conclusive of "Austism Spectrum". A dozen lor more diagnostic "symptoms" have been included into the diagnostic definintions.

You're also not accounting for immigration and the factors THOSE parents and children bring to the table in environmental exposure in their home countries. Or changes in diet, overall (Higher and higher sugar, fat and preservative content) for both child and prenatal mother.

Blaming it all on vaccines is easy but what about those kids who WEREN'T vaccinated and have autism spectrum diagnosis?

Additionally, how about the the fact that a child will recieve a higehr level of mercury exposure from a couple cans of tuna or a few shrimp dinners? Are these factors considered when claiming that thimerisol (mercury by-product accused of being the culprit) is the problem?

It's too easy to blame the stuff that a debunked "Researcher" in blamed (even though his research was done on vaccines that didin't actually contiain the thimerisol).


If we don't stand together, we fall alone
That didn't last long.



[ Parent ]
i definitely agree.... (0.00 / 0)
.... that special ed is a huge obligation and getting worse.... maybe today's new Vacs are a part of it.  but I also remember in the old days (70s) i could play outside in the south carolina sun and my Irish skin never burned.  Nowaways it take about an hour to turn my skin from "Sunkissed" to "Sun-smacked." LOL.

truth is i am not a scientist so all i got is my anecdotal "truths" which limits my cred on the issue.

my point is don't forget environmental factors either.  

activist for hire.Follow jay_lass on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Jay, maybe some of your friends (0.00 / 0)
across the pond have opinions on this.

They may have stories about the Pluserix vaccine in 1988 in the UK.

That appears to be when the fear of vaccines really began. We have had many safer vaccines for many many years prior.  

One Vote.  Yours.  It really does matter.


[ Parent ]
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