News Roundup & Open Thread for Tuesday, Feb. 15, 2011

I really don't know what to think of (0.00 / 0)

Stephen Sweeney, especially when I see images like the following in an article describing his pension plan that's very similar to Christie's:

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by: Kosh Naranek @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:03:12 PM UTC

Think... (0.00 / 0)

Think of someone who wants to be Governor, think of the leader of a party that teeters on the brink of irrelevance, think of a legislator whose greatest concern is for the health of harness racing.

Having said that, what's not to love in the Dem's proposal? Makes perfect sense to me. I'm glad to see the Democrats trying to fix something collectively instead of sending individual legislators to slaughter (or bills that languish if you prefer).

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by: Got Kids @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:19:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

He's a self-described "Reagan Democrat" (0.00 / 0)

Take it from there.

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by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:25:18 PM UTC

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Christie invokes meteorologists (0.00 / 0)

Christie: "I'm picking on public sector unions because they have lived in an unreal world with runaway salaries, runaway benefits and worse yet, no accountability. There's only two professions left in America where there is no reward for excellence and no consequences for failure, (and) weathermen don't work for me. But teachers do."

Wow, I thought I was reading a description of Wall St. investors at first.

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by: Kosh Naranek @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:16:51 PM UTC

"run away salaries" (0.00 / 0)

Yeah, right.

Shorter Christie:  "I'm trying to bring the race to the bottom to New Jersey."

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by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:22:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Christie betraying his ignorance yet again (4.00 / 1)

It's quotes like that that demonstrate yet again that Christie is either utterly uninformed about how public education actually works or is simply being disingenuous so that he can push his own radical agenda. I'll be kind and assume it's the former, in which case he joins many other New Jerseyans who cling to the myth that somehow public school teachers cannot be dismissed for poor performance. Of course they can and there is a process to do so. I know of several cases of teachers who have been dismissed, in some cases not necessarily for performance issues (personality conflicts being the more likely explanation).

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 16:47:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

While it may be possible... (4.00 / 1)

in theory... it rarely occurs. According the the National Center for Education Statistics the rate of teacher dismissal is 'Significantly less than 1%'.

http://nces.ed.gov/whatsnew/co...

I'm not so sure that's a myth.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 17:13:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And... (1.00 / 1)

I think (but don't know for sure), that figure includes non-tenured teachers.

I'd imagine the figure for tenured teachers is significantly less than that.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 17:14:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Let's focus on the reality in New Jersey (3.00 / 2)

I'm not sure what that number means since what really matters is whether or not teachers who are not performing competently are being advised of their poor performance and, assuming they are not improving, are actually being dismissed in individual districts here in New Jersey. Even within the state, that will vary to the degree to which school administrators use the existing tools at their disposal. I would challenge anyone who believes (based on firm evidence) that a specific teacher at his or her child's school is not competent, to step up and do something. But to argue rather broadly that incompetent teachers are getting away with it based on a national statistic doesn't seem particularly meaningful to the experience here in New Jersey. The fact remains that there is a process by which bad teachers, tenured or not, can be separated from the work force. If school administrators aren't following that process, there is clearly something wrong. But that is hardly an indictment of teachers as a broad category. In fact, I'd say it's sooner an indictment of apathetic administrators.

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 18:43:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The first thing we do . . . (2.50 / 2)

is k_ , uh, bash all the teachers.  Make them scapegoats.  The facts be damned.

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by: 12mileseastofTrenton @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 18:48:33 PM UTC

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Facts are inconvenient things... (4.00 / 2)

...especially when some people have an ideological axe to grind. It's always easier, and probably more emotionally satisfying, to go after teachers as a category of people, than to actually spend the time in a classroom knowing what teachers face every day. It's sad, of course, but what is worse is that terrible public policy can result from this knee-jerk animus against teachers.

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 19:02:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Umm... (0.00 / 0)

I said NOTHING of incompetence.

All I said is the facts are that very, very, very, few teachers are dismissed. And backed up it with the website.

I'm not indicting anyone, merely pointing out, that the system, as it stands, is dismissing a very low percentage of teachers. That's the fact.

Whether or not that is justified is debatable.

 

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 19:50:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

But you did say more (0.00 / 0)

You did say more than just give a statistic. You said that in reality, very few bad teachers are every fired.  

You might have meant that most teachers are good and that very few teachers in general are fired as a result.    If so, please correct the record.   But your comment seems to suggest that you think there are many poor teachers who should be fired, who aren't being fired.

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by: princetonblue @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 19:57:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nope (0.00 / 0)

I didn't say anything about 'bad' teachers. I did that on purpose.

All I was trying to express is that very, very, very, few teachers are dismissed.

As an educator, you would know better than I if that statistic is accurately reflects reality.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 21:19:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What do you mean by "it"? (0.00 / 0)

William,

If you think you "didn't say anything about 'bad' teachers," you should explain what you were referring to when you referred to "it."  

Rereading what you wrote, it seems clear that you are saying that bad teachers are seldom dismissed.  Perhaps you wrote something different than what you think you wrote?  For what you wrote seems to be at odds with your later explanations.

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by: princetonblue @ Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:38:57 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What "it" is... (0.00 / 0)

What did you mean by "it" in the following?

in theory... it rarely occurs.

I would think the relevant object here would be poor-performing teachers. After all, why would anyone want good teachers dismissed. And that's why quoting broad national statistics isn't particularly meaningful. What is meaningful is the issue here in New Jersey of hiring and retaining good teachers while weeding out bad ones. What I've observed (as opposed to quoting statistics) is that good administrators with involved parents can show bad teachers, tenured or not, the door. There is certainly a process, one designed to protect the rights of teachers against unfair and unwarranted reprisals by administrators who just don't like them (yes, this does happen). But a process exists.

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 22:37:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Again... (0.00 / 0)

my point is, wrongly or rightly, that 'it', being the dismissal of a teacher, rarely occurs, 'significantly less that 1%'.

There could be a multitude of reasons. I'm not familiar with enough teachers to comment on the appropriateness of that rate.

In fact, I don't know that in my years of public schooling that I can remember have a teacher that I would consider 'ineffective'.

Now at Rutgers, I can think of two or three professors that had no business teaching (excellent researchers, but not teachers).

My comment is only to the fact that it rarely happens. (whether the process exists or not)

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 15:12:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I highly doubt (4.00 / 1)

that non-tenured teachers are included in that figure.

Anyway, non-tenured teachers are part of two groups, both of which might paint a different picture: 1. all teachers and 2. all and only non-tenured teachers. If you're speaking about the first, it might seem as if few teachers are dismissed, since the sample size is much higher. However, if you focus only on the second, that percentage would likely highly increase (i.e., out of all the non-tenured teachers, how many are dismissed and how many are granted tenure). If you're at all familiar with the tenure process, that third year of teaching before tenure is granted is quite stressful, precisely because it's easy to be declined a fourth year.

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by: Kosh Naranek @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 19:58:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Happens all the time (0.00 / 0)

Those three years are indeed formative and stressful. Formative in that teachers, especially when well mentored, learn the ropes (it's sink or swim). Stressful precisely because it's very much a probationary period. If a teacher can't cut it by that third year, the prospects aren't great. I've gotten to meet some really great people who loved teaching with a passion but who were nevertheless denied tenure. In some cases, it was for a good reason. In many other cases, however, it was because of office politics, this latter reason being one of the many that justify the intellectual independence that tenure affords.

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 22:44:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Remember the book "How to Lie with Statistics." (4.00 / 1)

The statistic that 1% of all teachers are dismissed each year is meaningless by itself.   One has to first know how many teachers are bad.  And no one seems to want to answer that question.  The reason (I think) is that there aren't as many poor teachers as Christie or others would like to claim.

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by: princetonblue @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 19:54:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Exactly my point (0.00 / 0)

I'll admit up front that I'm a statistician (by dint of being an economist) by training. Whenever I see a number tossed out, the first questions I have to ask are a) relevance, b) comparability, c) sample technique, d) sample size, e) sample characteristics, and plenty more. Notice the first is relevance. Most numbers tossed around usually fail on that question alone.

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by: Alex @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 22:40:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I am with you... (0.00 / 0)

the number alone does not mean much.

I can imagine that if a pricinpal wanted to remove a teacher, it may be far easier and/or effective to ask for their resignation rather than go through the process.

Same result and those cases would not show up in that statistic.


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 19:47:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

live by test scores - die by test scores (0.00 / 0)

I wonder if charter school advocates, particularly conservatives like Christie, will be smart enough to take advantage of this charter school test score debacle and use it as an opportunity to educate the public about the limitations of standardized testing as a means of determing the quality of education at a particular school.

Simulataneously, I would hope that my fellow progressives would not be so torqued with schadenfreude to miss the same opportunity.  Yes, we could beat Christie et al up all day and night with poor charter school test scores if all we want to do is win an argument about whether public charter schools are better than traditional public schools.

However, if we want to have a more intelligent conversation about the respective roles of charters and traditionals as well as magnets in a public education framework that best serves the young people of our state as well as the failure of standardized testing to properly measure education quality, I think that we can actually take steps forward towards improving public education in a meaningful way instead of just winning an argument that most people have tuned out of anyway.

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by: Bertin Lefkovic @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 20:17:12 PM UTC

Interesting Contrast (0.00 / 0)

Just came across this NYT article about Dannel Malloy in which he contrasts his governing style to Chris Christie.  (OK, he practically called Christie a jerk and a bully.  Whatever.)  It will be interesting to see how a more "polite" Democrat fares in dealing with budget cuts, unions taxes, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02...

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by: SmartyJones @ Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 23:04:21 PM UTC