While Christie and Daggett meet with Gannett at 11am, Corzine will be in Elizabethtown

I don't like it (4.00 / 2)

Corzine is the governor for the whole state and I think he should do all these debate-like events.

I imagine that after the tax series, he and his advisors figure Gannett will never endorse him and will try to embarrass him.  So it's a Fox News type situation. The thing is, when Democrats (finally) wised up and didn't do a debate on Fox, people said that it was because Fox is biased. I haven't see much against Gannett or NJ 101.5, so it just comes off as evasive rather than principled.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 14:19:50 PM UTC

now I should say (0.00 / 0)

That as a purely practical "tactical" matter I have the sense that it was useful to Corzine to not be there. Furthermore, I really enjoyed watching Daggett and Christie debate.  But that's doesn't change my feelings about whether or not he should have done it.


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 18:22:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

From a member of the Gannett audience (0.00 / 0)

As a reader in Gannett's key circulation area, I see it as a discrediting of the Asbury Park Press/Home News editorial management, not as an evasive move.

I was surprised, because it was so unexpected.  But as someone who respects Corzine and Weinburg, it said to me that Gannett's NJ newspapers no longer are taken seriously by intelligent people.  

Corzine made a big, tacit statement by not attending.  

As it turned out, Gannett assigned an excellent, real journalist, Mike Symon, to report it.  But I would have expected them to put their GOP tool Erik Larson on it.  Maybe the Corzine camp did, too.  Larson would have written three 'graphs mocking Corzine's beard or such.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:28:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

they have an empty seat for Corzine (4.00 / 1)

Bob Ingle notes Corzine has done three of these before. Oh well.


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:01:23 PM UTC

Yeah. (0.00 / 0)

This and your previous comments are why I'd like to see Corzine attend. But in the big picture, it's not like Corzine has been inaccessible.

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by: JRB @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:16:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

they're going through the Gannett tax plan (0.00 / 0)

Getting a yes or no on each point.

Christie going through and saying yes to most of the gannett points, but not quite all.

He wants a consitutional convention every ten years without limits.

He says he likes the 2/3 vote to raise taxes, which has led to complete and utter disaster in Caifornoa.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:04:13 PM UTC

and in favor of statewide referenda by intiatatives (0.00 / 0)

Again, a complete and utter disaster in California.  Really shocking that anyone would advocate for it.


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:05:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Daggett also saying yes to many proposals (0.00 / 0)

I suppose Corzine didn't want to go through it.

Daggett against the reguar constitutional convention and 2/3 votes.  He's not an idiot like Christie.

The funny thing is both Daggett and Christie point out when Gannett skips one of their points by mistake.


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:07:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What is the point of a Constitution if you rewrite every 10 years? (4.00 / 2)

n/t

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by: JRB @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:17:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And ... (4.00 / 1)

... How can a Constitution require a balanced budget and then not let the executive and legislators raise taxes without voter approval?  Of course that vote would never pass.

Yet, the federal government, the state Constitution and the state and federal Supreme Courts require a considerable amount of state government intervention and management that all require revenue.  

That's without even considering the problem with changing the rules in the middle of the game, where Whitman's past debt deals obligate taxpayers to make good on ballooning interest payments.

To beat a dead adage:  The math doesn't work.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:38:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

question about arbitrators (0.00 / 0)

Gannett has proposed having arbitrators use "cost of living" as most important factor -- both Christie and Daggett opposed.  

It is pretty interesting to have the discussion in the context of Gannett's specific proposals. It really does focus the debate.

Christie speaks at length about opposing making it the most important factor, okay as a factor. Daggett says we need to change rules to "expand criteria."

Reporter asks "Chris" a question, which triggers laughter.  Which one?

At the end of the day, not that important a subject.  

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:24:20 PM UTC

question about police (4.00 / 1)

in shore towns making 6-figure salaries in just seven years.

Daggett says we need to expand the steps, we can't afford such quick increases.  (despite "enormous respect" for law enforcement.) Still allow 20-and-out, but start getting pension when they're older.

Christie invokes 'collective bargaining' and notes that they can't strike so are at a disadvantage!  Sounds like a Democrat, pretty funny.  Daggett responds yes we'll do it in collective bargaining but says think of the taxpayers.

Good discussion.  


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:27:28 PM UTC

SIx Figure Cops Should Mean We Get The Best.... (0.00 / 0)

...of the best.

The most emotionally, intellectually and physically fit people....and they should all have post grad degrees!

As it is now, too many cops are greedy petty power tripping bastards.........and all it takes is a few of these "rotten apples" to spoil the bunch because of the code of "Omerta" the cops cling to.

I would be happy to pay cops and teachers 150 K IF they were TRULY the best and the brightest!!! (and they could be fired when objectively/fairly shown to be incompetent)

 

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by: Nick Lento @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 17:50:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh please. (0.00 / 0)

Police put their lives on the line. Their jobs come with a lot of stress. Because of their responsibility they have to make decisions every day that are ones you can't just leave at the office.

I have no problem with officers being well-paid.

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by: JRB @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 19:14:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Read What I Wrote (Oh Please Do! LOL) (0.00 / 0)

You've completely misunderstood my comment.

There' no where in there where I objected to cops making LOTS of money!   I even said they should make 150 K!!!!

What I object to is some of the low caliber people in law enforcement who don't belong there...and the unfair/irrational disparities in pay.    

In some sense, anyone who puts on the uniform is risking their lives (even if they are incompetent and don't deserve their jobs.....arguably...those types are at even MORE peril, eh)

You misread and misunderstood my remarks

I want BETTER cops who are MORE competent and MORE honest!!!

Imagine if the cop who stopped Christie for going up the one way street and putting a motorcyclist in the hospital as he was BREAKING THE LAW had the balls to stand up to Christie (or his own "superiors"?) and actually issue a ticket?    We might not be having to deal with a Christie candidacy at all!

As for the stress et al; that's all the more reason to implement the principles I suggested.   We want the strongest/sanest/smartest people out there carrying guns!!!  And I don't mind paying them very well.

(And yes, I believe that teachers should also be among the best and the brightest.......when kids are properly educated (on all levels) they are far less likely to grow up to be crooks).

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by: Nick Lento @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 19:34:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Reality check (4.00 / 1)

I live in a Shore town, and cops lives are less on the line every day than the school crossing guard who gets paid minimum wage.

Seriously, almost every one of us in NJ is more at risk of dying from someone going postal than a cop in most NJ towns.  Cops are trained and armed to avert danger; we and everyone operating in other professions are not.

I can think of lots of jobs with more stress than the cops in my town.  Lots of them.  For that matter, all those people with no jobs have far more stress, imho.  I'm sure some of them would make great cops and not need six figures to do it.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:47:38 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good Point Jim..... (0.00 / 0)

........however, I still think that cops should be the best and the brightest and they should be highly paid (if they meet those criteria).

Every once in a while....even in a calm sleepy are like yours, a situation can come up that requires intelligent gutsy effective police work.   You don't want an incompetent idiotic "Barney Fife" in your sleepy town...and, sadly there are such assholes on the force that need to be rooted out.

It's particularly sad that in a place like NYC the cops, especially the rookies, are woefully underpaid....and they really DO have a workload and risk!!!

The kind of reforms I'm talking about can't be implemented overnight.  It would take a generation....and it would have to be in an overall context of massive systemic reform.

Again, everything is connected and it's all complex.  Meanwhile, enjoy a bit of Barney!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 13:57:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

should it be easier to get Urban Enterprise Zone (0.00 / 0)

to allow lower sales tax.

Daggett wants to know details, not sure he would make it easier.  

Christie says he has urban proposal, put all the benefits in a "part" of the largest city. That seems weird, but he says it's the proposal is out there.

Followup on why Daggett would allow police to ever make 6-figure salaries. Also mention small towns in central Jersey. Daggett responds not everyone should make that, it could be a nice goal. We can't afford the high salaries, but opposes a "cap" which reporter called for.  Ought to spread out the step process.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:30:49 PM UTC

Segregation (0.00 / 0)

It sounds like a racial segregation plan to me.  Or, at least, a class segregation one, which in 2009 still pretty much cuts across racial lines in our cities.

That will appeal to a great many of Gannett's predominantly white readership.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:52:29 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

question about how Christie's numbers add up (0.00 / 0)

So many tax cuts and giving out money in rebates.

Christie somehow answers it's all tax cuts.  I guess he is working hard to avoid answering. Says Corzine will raise taxes, need to defend rebates.

Says there are "cuts" with no details.

Daggett says the "answer is the math of Mr. Christie does not add up." Can't do what he's promising.  Daggett defends property tax cut instead of rebates.

Christie accuses Daggett of raising taxes, blames him for having worked in Trenton(!), then -- and I'm not kidding -- says you have to have "faith" in spending cuts.

Daggett says everyone in NJ is waiting to see how you will do it, so "please" tell us. You can cut every state worker and not do it.

This is a good part.  

Christie bashes Daggett for tax increases and acts like he's not cutting spending.

Daggett "Boy oh boy when you have nothing you can criticize someone else's plan."  "The numbers add up." "At least I have a plan... we're still waiting for a plan" "show us how we can improve that"


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:35:39 PM UTC

and very nicely (4.00 / 1)

reporters let Christie and Daggett respond back and forth there. Watch that part if nothing else.


Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:36:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Basically .... (0.00 / 0)

... Basically, Corzine orchestrated this into a second GOP gubernatorial primary for voters in Gannett's GOP-majority coverage area.

Smart, very smart.  I think for anti-Corzine voters, this is exactly the debate they needed to see.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:57:31 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

higher ed question (0.00 / 0)

Daggett:  We're last. Invokes Bell Labs, working with corporations, university and corporate research. Cost savings. Invest in facilities. Last bond issue for university was in 80s, so instead tuition has paid for new buildings.

I'm quite intrigued by how Daggett focuses on research.

Christie: Bashes Corzine's cuts.  Bashes Corzine supporting unionization at Rutgers and then cutting state support.

Follow-up  on new state college. Daggett: no. Costs are driving away students. Christie: also brings up 50th in number of states, but no on new campus. Help existing ones. 30,000 students left to go to college elsewhere.  

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:39:59 PM UTC

ask about 8 billion dollar budget gap (0.00 / 0)

Christie will defer pension contributions. will defer increase in state school aid. Says Corzine says Obama will send more aid.  Freeze salaries or cuts.

Daggett: 1/3 will taken by my tax cut plan, 1/3 on freeze on spending, other 1/3 wait to see if economy recovers or new stimulus money. We'll otherwise make remaining cuts. Skeptical we can cut $1 billion in employee cuts.

followup on whats the difference between christie's plan and corzine's plan.  lol! the difference is tax cut.  Daggett: can't do it. better get a calculator.

Christie bashes daggett plan for not being specific.  see what springtime brings. that is unspecific. "It's an honor to be called unspecific after that answer."

Daggett:  "nonsense out of republican party and mr christie"

This is actually more interesting without Corzine there.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:44:32 PM UTC

ask about transportation trust fund (0.00 / 0)

Daggett blames Repubs and Dems (including those leaders supporting Christie) for messing up a great system set up by Kean. Too much debt.

No one has a better idea than increasing gas tax, or increasing tolls, somehow have to increase revenue.

Christie denounces more taxes as "last resort." Blames Whiteman and Corzine for debt.  Can't raise taxes.

followup - Christie says "we have to figure" something out, can't raise tolls, transportation projects "will suffer."

Daggett: "more potholes" etc. "That's what you get when you don't step up"  Transportation underlines the economy: irresponsible.  Christie denies what he just said(!) and goes into tax rant.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:49:23 PM UTC

and another exchange (0.00 / 0)

where they bash each other.

I'm impressed with Daggett in this debate. He won't lose any votes here.

Christie: Trenton is a pit.  Nice, though he's talking about the legislature.

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:51:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes Daggett IS Impressive..... (0.00 / 0)

...that's why Corzine should have been there.

Christie is an empty and corrupt assoholic "suite".  He is rapidly deflating.   Christie looks worse with every passing day.

Daggett is now the threat to Corzine's re-election......Corzine must NOT let his campaign catch fire.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 14:04:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

what are top three concession you seek? (0.00 / 0)

Christie says he won't say, as if he won't be able to negotiate if he gives away his strategy. That's pathetic.

Daggett says it's responsible to have the conversation before the election.  Adds county and school employees. Contribute more to to benefit systems.  

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:52:51 PM UTC

Q: cynics will say Daggett won't win (0.00 / 0)

and is really just trying to get something.

Daggett says he's at 17%, maybe 21%, in one poll. People are tired of both parties. Gives a good speech.  We're going to fix this state.

Christie says we have to take Daggett as his word on why he's running, he's tired of politics as usual too. Invokes putting people in jail.  

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 15:55:19 PM UTC

final statements (0.00 / 0)

Daggett: Only wasted vote is politics as usual.  30-year track record, etc.  A nice speech on why he's running. Returns to "you've gotta believe" and you can change the state by voting for an independent.

Christie: Commends Daggett for showing up. Sure.  Bashes Corzine for not showing up and uses to say he can't answer questions.  Uses the word "fail" or "failure" repeatedly. Goes through problems.  Will cut spending even on programs "you might like." Will cut taxes.  Improve urban education. If you want change to send "Corzine back to Illinois" (cute) vote Christie.

All in all, a really good event.  Good questions, just about all on the budget and really running the state, and the reporters allowed exchanges between Christie and Daggett.  Well worth watching.

   

Frank LoBiondo Record and Jon Runyan Watch

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by: Hopeful @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 16:00:03 PM UTC

Corzine Is Blowing It.... (0.00 / 0)

...he should be showing up at ALL these events and taking the opportunity to show his policy chops and to rhetorically beat the (bull)shit out of Christie.

Sure most people will not watch this but they WILL get the message that he didn't bother to show up......and it makes him look like he's either arrogant or a wuss or both!

It seems Corzine thinks that because he now has the "mo" he's settling back into a "front runner" attitude and thinks he can coast to a plurality.

Big mistake.

Daggett could take ten points from Christie easily and ten more from Corzine and win this thing!!!

Christie, as I said many months ago, is now clearly "toast".    Though, he's finally beginning to come up with a few specifics...it's too late and he's wrong anyway.

Corzine seems to be listening to the "pros" who are guiding him to a no/low risk path to "victory".  A shame.

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by: Nick Lento @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 17:58:08 PM UTC

PS If Gannett Strongly Endorses Daggett...... (0.00 / 0)

.........(after the debates) all bets are off.

As much as I would hate to have a Republican (Daggett) win.......it would almost serve Corzine right to lose this because he wasn't willing to be aggressive enough to demolish Christie and show the people of New jersey that he's intensely passionate about making things better for us.

Then again, if this was always just an ego/power trip/game for him....then maybe we're better off with Daggett, who (at this point) seems more genuine than either main party candidate?

I'm not going to switch (after all, a Corzine win WOULD bring us Loretta Weinberg as LG) but I must say that I'm very disappointed to see Corzine shirking this opportunity to do battle.

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by: Nick Lento @ Tue Oct 13, 2009 at 18:04:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Endorsement (0.00 / 0)

I'll bet the APP, and probably the Home News, endorse Daggett.

And with the strong GOP history of the APP, that really would be some statement about how bad Christie stinks as a candidate.

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by: Jim33 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 12:05:19 PM UTC