Veto urged for prevailing wage at BPU

What is? (0.00 / 0)

'prevailing wage'

Is prevailing wage $25/hr, $35/hr, $45/hr, how is it defined? Is it published somewhere?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 20:15:02 PM UTC

Ungrateful Idiots (0.00 / 0)

The businesses which make up the "Mid-Atlantic Solar Energy Energy Industries Association" base their industry and business plans on the existence of progressive governments on the state and federal level.  They need those governments to (a) mandate renewable energy quotas, (b) make "dirty" power pay its fair share for polluting, which also makes solar more competitive, and (c) fund the stimulus to create the jobs in their industry.

Those progressive governments are in place due, in part, to major union support.  If the NJ Governor was Doug Forrester, and the U.S. Government was run by a President McCain with a Republican congress, these guys wouldn't have a viable solar industry.  They'd be off selling cookware at county fairs or something.

Their big, "Thanks, Unions, now go screw" needs to be rejected.

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by: Cautious Man @ Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 20:26:12 PM UTC

Licking their Chops (4.00 / 1)

Having worked in the solar industry I can tell you that the profit margins are razor thin and the industry has been on life support since the change in the rebate structure. Though this is about to change once energy producers nationwide have to comply with a renewable energy portfolio.

I recently ran into a roofing contractor who explained "prevailing wage" to me. And man was he licking his chops. Seems prevailing wage is something like the price of health care for the uninsured.

So before I get called on the carpet (which has been known to happen to me here) can someone post what exactly the prevailing wage numbers are. We need a comparison.

The closeted conservative in me thinks the numbers were made up in a back room by union members and poloticians. A deadly mix.

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by: Got Kids @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 15:42:37 PM UTC

Good Questions.... (0.00 / 0)

At first blush, the pro union pro labor advocate part of me is all geared up to say yes to higher wages for working people...but this is a complex multifaceted matter worthy of some deeper thought and analysis.

It seems not quite right that a contractor who gets paid by people for residential solar isn't regulated by anything other than minimum wage laws (and that's assuming he isn't hiring illegals); but when the exact same work (on a larger scale perhaps)  is done on a government project the per hour wage costs can go up by a factor of ten or more times.

There is something wrong with this picture.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:06:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Truth About Prevailing Wage (0.00 / 0)

Prevailing wage was intended to be the average wage in a particular trade or profession but in NJ they have made the prevailing wage the union wage. the issue is not the wage as much as it is the antiquated work rules and rediculous benefit rates
for electricians for example the benefit rate per hour is 33.50 with no explaination of what that represents. I am an electrical contractor that provides full benefits to my employees including health care pension paid holidays vacation etc and all of that does not add up to even $10 per hour yet taxpayers are forced to pay $33.50 the wage is upwards of $55.00. I know the automatic response is "Living Wage" which is non defineable and a buzz work created by the unions to try to justify the contracts they have negotiated
now the legislature is expanding the prevailing wage mandate beyond public work and into the private arena which will absolutely result in a net loss of new jobs and projects when the consumers realize what they will now have to pay to get the work done

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 17:40:45 PM UTC

Prevailing Wage rates (0.00 / 0)

The prevailing wage rates are available on the NJ Department of Labor Web site including the antiquated work rules and unjustifiable benefit mandates
Electrician rate is upwards of $88.00 per hour including benefits
which is now being forced upon the public for private construction projects. When is enough enough ?
Its not the wage rate that is objectionable. it is the legislature mandating the rate upon the taxpayers and now the general public that is egregious.  

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 17:47:23 PM UTC

... including benefits ... (0.00 / 0)

The dollar amounts paid workers aren't nearly so spectacular once the benefits are backed out. But still you insist, it's not the wage rate that is objectionable, it's the legislature forcing them that is the problem. Well, bub, prevailing wage rules have been the standard in government contracts for a very long time, and that just isn't likely to change. Anyone who wants to read more and understand can go here:

http://lwd.dol.state.nj.us/lab...

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 18:11:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Private projects? (0.00 / 0)

Not hardly. These 'private' projects are using public funds via the BPU.

Prevailing wages are to be paid on these projects as follows:

For the purposes of this section, "board financial assistance" means any tax exemption, abatement or other incentive or any rebate, credit, loan, loan guarantee, expenditure, investment, grant, incentive, or other financial assistance which is, in connection with construction, approved, funded, authorized, administered or provided by the board, whether the assistance is received before, during or after completion of the construction, except that "board financial assistance" does not include any rebate, credit, loan, loan guarantee, expenditure, investment, grant, rental voucher, rental assistance, tax exemption, tax abatement, tax incentive, or other financial assistance from any source, if that assistance is provided directly to a homeowner or tenant in connection with the homeowners' or tenant's place of residence, including assistance for energy-related and other improvements to the place of residence.

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 18:18:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Wouldn't a better idea... (0.00 / 0)

be for the state to set a 'minimum wage' for these projects instead of 'prevailing wage'.

Using the governor's rationale, livable wage should be $36/hr. Which amounts to $75,000, (above which, you lose your rebate).

Wouldn't that be a much more efficient solution, and isn't it more progressive. Isn't it a progressive concept to pay two people $36/hr rather than one $72?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 20:20:01 PM UTC

You miss the Point (0.00 / 0)

It is a shame that so many people are uneducated as to what the Prevailing wage really is not to mention its real origins. There are also those that don't want to know and those whose greed blinds them to the reality of what the prevailing wage costs them personally each and every day of their lives.
Prevailing wage originated with the Davis Bacon Act which is a Federal Law and is supposed to be the average of ALL wages on Federal Projects within a particular trade. NJ adopted what is commonly known as a baby bacon act, but instead of surveying the average wages they mandate union wages. There is nothing wrong with union wages or how much they can negotiate for themselves. What's wrong is mandating that wage upon every taxpayer in NJ.  
To say that the wage is not that spectacular once you back out the benefits is absolutely absurd since the wage for Electrician is upwards of $58.93 per hour. Why should the taxpayers and now private entities within NJ be forced to pay that exorbitant wage.
The benefits for that wage are 35.21 per hour for a total wage including benefits of $94.14 then add 17.5% for Social Security, Unemployment / Disability State Tax and Workers Compensation insurance and the cost for that Electrician rises to $110.61, and that's COST. Assuming that the contractor is allowed to cover their overhead, and god forbid make a profit they have to charge upwards of $150.98 per hour for that electrician, and that's at a mere 5% profit margin.
There is no possible justification of that wage being forced upon taxpayers and now private construction projects when the merit shop rate charged to the consumer for an electrician making $35.00 per hour with full benefits doing the exact same work at the exact same quality who is trained exactly the same is approximately $85.00 per hour. I anticipate someone trying to counter with an intellectually bankrupt assertion that $35.00 per hour is not good money even though 65% of the people in NJ would love to have a job that paid them that much.  
Furthermore the threshold for prevailing wage in NJ which is the dollar amount above which the prevailing wage is required to be paid is $2000.00 for school, state, and county, construction, and has been the same since 1962. The threshold for municipal construction is just under $12,000. The average threshold in the Northeast for Prevailing Wage is $108,000. The Liberal States of Connecticut and Maryland have thresholds of $400.000 and $500,000 respectively and the ultra liberal Vermont is at $100,000 and New Hampshire has abolished the prevailing wage altogether resulting in Billions in taxpayers savings. Obviously those states have recognized that there is a limit to what the public should be forced to endure.
Don't be so naive to believe that there will never be reform of the Prevailing Wage in NJ. NJ SENATE RESOLUTION NO.127 urges the legislature to suspend the prevailing wage for 12 months given the tough economic times. The resolution goes on to say that the state will revisit the prevailing wage and adjust it as it was originally intended.  

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 21:11:39 PM UTC

whhat loada palaver (0.00 / 0)

look at the link I provided. Look under Middlesex County. The prevailing wage for a journeyman electrician is $43.54 before benefits. An assistant general foreman makes $52 & change before benefits. SHOW ME - PROVIDE A LINK TO A GOVERNMENT WEBSITE - where the prevailing wage anywhere in NJ for an electrician is $85+ before benefits. Or shut up and go away.

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:22:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

whatta loada palaver (0.00 / 0)

look at the link I provided. Look under Middlesex County. The prevailing wage for a journeyman electrician is $43.54 before benefits. An assistant general foreman makes $52 & change before benefits. SHOW ME - PROVIDE A LINK TO A GOVERNMENT WEBSITE - where the prevailing wage anywhere in NJ for an electrician is $85+ before benefits. Or shut up and go away.

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:24:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes!!! They are Private Projects (0.00 / 0)

Obviously you did not read the text of the Legislation before you pasted it here or you just don't understand it.
The projects are indeed private projects performed on private not public property including but not limited to Churches, Charitable Organizations, Office Buildings or your Corner Deli.
The funds are not at all public funds they are ratepayer funds, taken from each and every taxpayers utility bills. There is a difference and if you don't know what that is you really should do some research. The law itself may even be illegal and is expected to be challenged in Federal court.
Even if the funds were public funds why would anyone believe that mandating a higher labor rate is justified because the funds are public? That is void of common sense or logic.    

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 21:34:16 PM UTC

... ahem ... madness indeed ... (0.00 / 0)

The New Jersey Board of Public Utilities is a state agency and regulatory authority mandated to ensure safe, adequate and proper utility services at reasonable rates for New Jersey customers.

If you take money from a state agency you're taking public money and can therefore expect to be required to follow state law. Don't like it, don't take the money. A very conservative solution, n'est pas?

I think you need a different forum in which to peddle your neocon distaste for fair wages. The nuanced difference of 'ratepayer money' versus 'taxpayer money' is lost on moi ... and the history of prevailing wage rates goes far beyond the federal Davis-Bacon Act opf 1913. New Jersey has had them since 1913. They've been around in one form or another since 1858 at a state level. 33 states (or so) have them today. And no one has been able to prove anything good has occured in the states where they have been removed.

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:14:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why Should A Worker On A Government.... (0.00 / 0)

.....funded project be entitled to enormously larger pay than an ordinary worker who is simply doing the same work in the private sector?

I understand the progressive impulse for raising the pay scale of working people, and agree with; but there's something fishy going on when these grand incomes are reserved for members of politically connected unions who are working on taxpayer funded jobs which are often associated with boondoggles in which which the contractors and suppliers are also ripping off the taxpayers.  Especially at the local levels where the contractors and the local officials have all manner of incestuous political/financial relationships.

Also, these extremely highly paid union jobs all to often become limited to people with connections and are only opened up to new people and minorities when pressed by force of a lawsuit.  And yes, the "work rules" often allow the "workers" to get away with not doing much work.  (I'll never forget what happened when I was working as a sales rep and was bringing a small piece of equipment into a trade show....the vicious and vehement manner in which I was told in no uncertain terms that I could roll the computer [this was a long time ago] in was scary).

What's needed is universal comprehensive health care for all, and a minimum wage that IS a living wage for all.

Someone doing direct care at a non profit group home is just as skilled and as important as any electrician....yet they earn a tiny fraction of what the folks who will benefit from this bill will make......and, as you know, most group homes exist with all manner of government subsidies/contracts.

I'm far from taking the side of our Mr/Ms "EndTheMadness" but these issues are truly complex and multifaceted.

Meanwhile, I strongly doubt Corzine will veto this bill.

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:48:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's probably... (0.00 / 0)

my biggest gripe with trade unions. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people 'getting in' the union because of a relative/friend/etc. If there is one process that should be reformed, it's leveling the playing field for entering the unions.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 00:15:32 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thats jobs in general though... (0.00 / 0)

you are much more likely to get a job because you knew someone already working there, and they vouched for you as a candidate.  This is not unique to trade unions, I know I got my first job out of college at a law firm because I knew someone on the inside, and have several classmates who had the  same type of thing happen.  

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by: Matthew Jordan @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:59:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree to a point... (0.00 / 0)

but there is a lot more shenanigans that go on with union halls, in my opinion.

For example, which guys get which jobs and for how long... I know people who were 'blackballed' for one reason or another and spent more time layed-off than working... I agree that stuff happens in non-union industry too, but I do believe it's more prevalent in trade unions.

 

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 17:05:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

As the son, brother, and cousin of Union workers... (0.00 / 0)

there really isn't that much shenanigans.  What are you basing your opinion off of, if I had to guess, probably media accounts or what friends tell you, and how reliable are they?  

Sure people spend time layed-off, when the economy is bad (like now) people stop building, if people aren't building there isn't work.  

I can tell you first hand-which guy gets a job is based pretty much on who is the cheapest-so if you are an apprentice you are more likely to get a job than a journeyman because they can pay you less.  

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by: Matthew Jordan @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 17:24:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Therin lies my point.. (0.00 / 0)

I bet your dad got your brother and cousin the job...


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 20:32:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, 2 separate Unions for my brother & cousin.... (0.00 / 0)

but yes, my father did get my brother in his Union, but a family friend got me my first job out of college at a law firm.

How are they different?  

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by: Matthew Jordan @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 20:54:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

To clarify... (4.00 / 1)

that wasn't a dig. It most certainly goes on in non-union sector as well. I don't know, since I've never been in a trade union, but I did go to school with Mike Stratamar, whose father Peter was business manager of the operational engineers.

As I remember it, way back in high school, rumor had it that Mike's sister (Peter's daughter) had a no-show job with union. At the time, I thought that's probably just rumor. Last year, I read that Peter was in fact a bad apple, had taken bribes, (is now in federal prison I beleive) and sure enough, did actually give his daughter a no-show job. (this is 20 years later he was caught, BTW). I tell the story only because I believe, that somehow the major trade unions are more susecptible to corruption. I point to the mafia influence in many major unions.

In addtion, I can remember earning my engineering degree after 4 years of Rutgers and being wonderfully happy to have gotten an offer of $12.50/hr with 10 hours overtime in 1994. Only to become jaded when I learned my friend (who had a father in the paver's union), had started at $19.50/hr with no skills or education.

That's neither here nor there, but those are the experiences that shape my opinions.

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 23:08:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Labor AND Capital (0.00 / 0)

Must both be regulated and kept honest.  Criminality, corruption and unethical behavior know no ideological bounds.

Thanks for sharing that personal history!  

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by: Nick Lento @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 00:13:18 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The pay scale isn't ENORMOUSLY larger, Nick (0.00 / 0)

unless you use Endless' false comparisons. He's comparing the fully loaded cost of an assistant foreman with the actual take-home pre-tax pay of a journeyman electrician. It's a bullshit analogy.

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:19:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Honest... (0.00 / 0)

I think some of the payscale difference are due to the fact that the private contractor has 'journeyman' electrician in his employ all year, 2080 hours, etc.
Whereas the union guy might spend a siginificant amount of time the year layed-off. They probably make much closer to the same annual wage if you factor in the union guy will spend a significant amount of time idle during the year...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 17:13:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What Would You Say To.... (0.00 / 0)

Guaranteeing a truly decent living minimum wage to ALL workers? Whether they are working on private or public contracts shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not saying that the burger flipper should make the same pay as a skilled electrician who is in a primo union......but that the disparity shouldn't be so much (assuming the numbers you gave were correct 150.98 per hour does seems kind of infair for an electrician....when the guy doing the same work for the small solar residential contractor may be making a tenth of that sum).

And while we're at it, why not tax a contractor who is successful enough to have profits of, say, 10 million bucks a year at a rate of say....60%?   You would still have an incentive to get rich.....but you would also be paying into the system that provides a healthy framework for your success.   That's called progressive taxation!

Also, speaking of disparity, why not top out executive corporate compensation at, say, 80 times the pay of the lowest paid employee instead of the "sky's the limit scamifies system we have now?

As for benefits, why not have single payer universal health care that includes dental and basic vision (fancy frames etc should be extra)?   As an employer wouldn't that make your life easier?

Meanwhile, I doubt that Corzine will veto the bill, though I have to concede that, at least on the surface, you've made a fair case.   This issue/question is worthy of a much deeper investigation and analysis than we've made here.  Thanks for raising it!

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:26:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

EndTheMadness, please end the madness... (0.00 / 0)

how can I take you seriously when you sign up for our wonderful site under a ridiculous pseudonym and start attacking labor unions?  

Everyone knows your a troll thats why you have the pseudonym to hide behind.  Do you see myself, Dennis, William, or Nick hiding behind them?

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by: Matthew Jordan @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 03:03:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Middlesex County (0.00 / 0)

The rates stated were specified as upwards of, and are listed for Middlesex County on the NJ Department of Labor web site. Pick a level they are all high but as I stated before it is not the wage it is the benefits that are egregious along with forcing the rate on the public.
The $85 per hour is the average Merit Shop Contractor rate while paying a journeyman electrician a fair wage of $35 per hour plus full benefits. Obviously you have no compassion for taxpayers.
I was trying to have an intellectual conversation to the realities and flaws in the prevailing wage mandates.
So you are right this is not the right forum to have an intellectual conversation.
And then you wonder why the state is going bankrupt  

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:40:14 PM UTC

Do you fear an organizing vote? (4.00 / 1)

Prevailing Wage and Project Labor Agreements have leveled the playing field and helped make New Jersey a haven for the Middle Class.

My real question of you, the scab contractor, is why you do not let your employees form or join  a Union?

If your employees were asked today if they would like to become members of the IBEW I am sure they would jump atthe chance. But then again you would probably fire any of those who spoke in favor of a Union.  

It is OK for you to make money and suck of the tit of the Middle wage pay scale that has been established in New Jersey  but you feel that your employees should be " kept down".

Post the name of your company and I will make sure an IBEW Representative contacts you and sets up a " Fair" organizing vote.  

If your employees are really happy then you will not fear an organizing vote .

Somehow I think we will no longer hear from you now.  

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by: firstamend07 @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:25:22 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

quote that exactly (4.00 / 1)

that's NOT what it says. Journeyman rate shown on that page, with benefits, is about $53. Assistant Foreman rate is cloer to the number you cite.

Why in hell are we arguing the merits of a bill that only Gerald Cardinale could love??

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:21:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not So (0.00 / 0)

Oh, and by the way, The Board of Public Utilities is not a state agency. You should research that too

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by: EndTheMadness @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 22:42:16 PM UTC

Ahem.... (0.00 / 0)

The Board of Public Utilities is clearly a part of the sate of New Jersey's governmental apparatus.

See this website...  http://www.state.nj.us/bpu/ind...

It says at the top "State of New Jersey - Board of Public Utilities   BPU"  with a graphic of the state seal.

How are you defining "State Agency"?   Or are you simply mistaken?  

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by: Nick Lento @ Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 23:30:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is not Alabama (0.00 / 0)

Contractors will still make money on a prevailing wage job. The playing field is level.

Most of these projects will be covered by a PLA which will ensure NO work rule problems.

Trained and highly skilled Union and the not so skilled non-union affiliated contractors have the same right to bid on these jobs.

Non-union contractors talk like they are being shut out . That is not the truth.  

Prevailing rate guarantees that scab companies do not come into an area and undercut the wages of middle class workers.

The salaries earned are then spent which helps all parts of the economy.

New Jersey has had a strong construction union history and because of that a strong middle class has evolved.

That Bill will NOT BE VETOED .  

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by: firstamend07 @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 00:24:10 AM UTC

Nobody is arguing the contractors will lose... (0.00 / 0)

that's not the point... the point is isn't it better to employ 100 people making 75k a year vs. 50 people making 150k...

Isn't it better to get twice the amount of green projects done for the same money?


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai

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by: William Weber (WjcW) @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:38:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Bounty (0.00 / 0)

Circa eighteenth century Europe, a subsidy paid to herring fisherman was called a bounty. Adam Smith, the moral philosopher and father of modern day capitalism, observed that it was all too "common for vessels to fit out for the sole purpose of catching, not the fish, but the bounty."

There is little doubt that we are on the verge of a green revolution. Soon, money will be flowing to retrofit existing structures to improve energy efficiency and new buildings will be constructed the likes of which we have never before seen. I agree that we need professionals leading the way. And by every indication I have had from my experience in the solar industry these are professionals. People who have left successful careers to pursue a new industry, at great risk to themselves and their families.

The whole premise of America is that we are free to choose our destiny. It is only through constant critical evaluation of our circumstances that we can identify new problems and address them. We can react to the forces of change and shape them, or at least adapt to them, so that we maximize the benefit and minimize the harm. Or we can just let a narrow but powerful segment of our society continue to have the rules written to suit their desires. "Free Lunch: How the wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves (And Stick You With The Bill)", David Cay Johnston

Choose well Governor Corzine.

Best regards to all.

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by: Got Kids @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 04:31:01 AM UTC

In the end, it's very simple. (0.00 / 0)

If you can't afford to pay the prevailing wage, don't take the BPU funding. There are businesses pursuing green projects all over NJ because they pay off on their own merits. Nothing's not going to get done because of the prevailing wage rule.

I don't see anyone attempting a cost-benefit analysis of taking the funding and paying the wage versus not taking the funding and not paying the wage. That would be impossible, because we don't know the ins-and-outs of individual commercial projects.

Businesspeople aren't idiots. They won't undertake projects that don't make sense, and they won't take funding they can't afford. If the prevailing wage rule prevents some businesses from using that funding stream to 'go green,' that's okay. If that means less profit for non-union contractors, oh well. (Actually, it probably will mean more work for non-union contractors because I suspect most commercial projects will forego BPU funding).

The same number of BPU-administered dollars will go to solar projects regardless. Maybe most of those dollars will go to residential projects because the prevailing wage really is onerous. Who knows? Not Endless. He's a troll, period. The Senate bill he cites about suspending the prevailing wage rate is sponsored by Gerald Cardinale - it doesn't have  SINGLE OTHER Republican sponsor (and needless to say, no Democrats!)

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by: denniscmcgrath @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:33:09 PM UTC

Thanks For Clearing That Up Dennis, But... (0.00 / 0)

...aside from the misleading way "the troll" has tried to make his case, there are some issues and points that he's raised that should be addressed.   It really is a complex and involved area.

On one hand we would desire good paying living wages for ALL workers, regardless of the job.   Most of us would likely desire single payer health care and affordable housing for all workers along with guaranteed public higher education for their children.

Unions are, generally good and even great institutions...however there is a category of unions in which there is a kind of privilege and power that is disproportionate to the kinds of incomes and power that most workers have access to.

Obviously, they can not (yet) export jobs in "the trades" and there's many hundreds of billions of dollars at stake in the field of construction....so these unions have lots of clout that, say, a person "flipping burgers" doesn't have.

My concern, frankly, is that there may be a nexus between organized crime, political bossism and the contracting industry...and that that nexus has infiltrated the trade unions.   If you ever talk to folks "on the street" this is what many people believe.

Gerald Cardinale is a right wing scumbag who doesn't give a shit about working people, I get that.  His interest in having the legislation vetoed is to make life more prosperous for the contractors who aren't "connected" to the existing corrupt power structure......Cardinale just wants to substitute one kind of exploitative corruption for another.

And I also get that for the thousands of trade union members in NJ that can actually make decent middle class livings, the unions seem like a great blessing.

My wish is that we can have good pay and good benefits for all, not just a slice of the labor force that happens to be involved in these kinds of highly profitable projects (that are often boondoggled into cost over runs etc).

Further, it's also clear that not just anyone can get into these good high paying union jobs.....it matters "who you know" and how "connected" you are.    And it is true that many of these unions have only reluctantly under force of law begun to admit minorities and women and that there is a residue of sexism, racism and I dare say homophobia that is still extant (if not pervasive) in that culture.

Theoretically, a contractor like "ETM" could raise his wages, and adopt the same benefit package AND work rules and then she/he could hire non union workers and bid on jobs....is that correct?   And if he/she was actually able to make them productive, and wasn't burdened by having to pay to play or having to kick back anything to the mob...he could, theoretically, make a real killing, right?   Obviously, that's a fantasy scenario as it would require a massive capital investment and, likely, a commensurately large security force to deal with the, shall we say, repercussions.

Bottom line: EVERYONE should have the same kind of decent  income and benefits that the guys and gals that work at building our highways and skyscrapers get.  

The home health aid that has to clean the shit off the butt of an Alzheimers patient and then deal with the confusion and emotional tantrums and crying of that same patient is working just as hard as anyone "in construction"!   General laborers digging ditches will earn many multiples of the minimum wage paid to that home health aid.

The folks at the top want the working poor envious of the blue collar elites and want us fighting each other; I get that too......but the problem is that there REALLY is such a thing as organized crime and pay to play and dirty contractors who give dirty money to dirty politicians.

Again, I'm talking about systemic/endemic corruption....most of it is legalized; but does anyone doubt that there's "still" a mob.....and that they don't have their fingers on all sorts of pies?

So yeah, Cardinale is a shit and "ETM" is likely a troll who is a PR hack pretending to be a contractor.....but some elements of their stated concerns are at least half true.

The problem isn't simply left v right or Republican v Democrat; it's honesty and human decency vs corruption and sociopathy.

If American makes it into the 22nd century as a democracy it will be because all of the issues and concerns I just raised will have been completely cleaned up.  

Systemic corruption IS organized crime.   If we put the same urgency into cleaning up the systemic corruption and organized criminality in the US that have put into Iraq and Afghanistan...we could change the face of America in a decade, or less!!!

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by: Nick Lento @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 15:27:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Its as elementary as I can make it and you just dont get it (0.00 / 0)

Again there is much assuming going on here with no discernable comprehension for an intelligent conversation.
Throwing around the terms scab, rat, troll etc. only serve to discredit yourself and enforce your inability to engage in intelligent conversation.
If my posts were read correctly anyone can see that I have not bashed unions here at all. I am merely stating facts. What I have done is start a discussion on the mandated prevailing rate.
It doesn't matter to me if the IBEW negotiated $500 per hour for their members, that is not the issue, nor do I care about their pay rate. What I do care about is that their rate is the Prevailing rate and not the true average wage rate for electricians in NJ as the Bacon Davis Act intended.
The fact that it is or isn't public money is not the issue either. The issue is forcing that rate upon the public. There is no intelligent justification for that and anything to the contrary is just rhetoric.
What I will say about unions pro or con is that there are those that are so closed minded that they believe that electricians working for Merit shop contractors have no right to work. That very notion is ridiculous. There are those that can not comprehend that the majority of not only Electricians but also the majority of Americans do not want to join a union that is their choice to make, not mine. If my employees wanted to join a union they can vote in a secret ballot election to do so or not.
S2340 is not a union vs merit shop issue it is a taxpayer and now consumer issue. When faced with the increased cost of a green project with prevailing wage the consumer will not contract the project at all. The private consumer unlike the government cares about one thing, how much is the check they will have to write when the project is completed. Mandating prevailing rate on the project increases cost and will cancel private projects before they even hit the drawing boards.
The problem for the IBEW (and it is their problem not the publics problem) is the majority of those that have an interest in advancing in their field don't want any part of joining a union. In fact my employees have thrown union organizers off our projects with no input one way or the other from me. As an employer I have a responsibility to my employees to explain to them the pros and cons of union membership. Unfortunately the way the laws are written unions are responsible to no one and guarantee nothing.
The majority of Merit Shop Electricians are trained as well or better than Union Electricians which has been proven over and over again. Anyone can try to argue the point but they will be wrong plain and simple.
Merit shop Electricians revel in the fact that they can advance based upon their work ethic and merit and the quality of their work and are not limited to the same pay as every one of their co-workers whether they are productive and knowledgeable or not.
That theory works on a production line at Government Motors not in the field as a skilled tradesman.  

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by: EndTheMadness @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 17:37:29 PM UTC

Dissection (0.00 / 0)

 

*[new]  Its as elementary as I can make it and you just dont get it  (0.00 / 0)
Again there is much assuming going on here with no discernable comprehension for an intelligent conversation.

Huh?  Read that sentence again, and then tell us how "intelligent" you are.   Further, if you're gong to say that others have no "discernable comprhension" (to use your phrase and spelling) then you need to use specific quotes and make a case based on those, otherwise you're just "makin stuff up". Eh?

Throwing around the terms scab, rat, troll etc. only serve to discredit yourself and enforce your inability to engage in intelligent conversation.

Rat I haven't seen.  Non union shops looking to take business from union shops are traditionally called scabs.   As for "troll", it depends on whether you're really who you claim to be, or whether you're just playing games to distract and annoy people.

My sense is that you're a troll.  If you really were a contractor and really believed in what your were saying and knew it all from direct first jand experience.....in other words IF YOU WERE TELLING THE TRUTH...you wouldn't be ashamed of afraid of using your real name.   After all, you're "the boss" and no one can fore you.  Right?

If my posts were read correctly anyone can see that I have not bashed unions here at all. I am merely stating facts.

Duhhhh, that's a troll like statement.  The "facts" are what folks disagree on in this case.  

What I have done is start a discussion on the mandated prevailing rate.
It doesn't matter to me if the IBEW negotiated $500 per hour for their members, that is not the issue, nor do I care about their pay rate. What I do care about is that their rate is the Prevailing rate and not the true average wage rate for electricians in NJ as the Bacon Davis Act intended.

Look, if you believe that the law you're objecting to isn't  constitutional; then sue.  It's OK, you're allowed.

The fact that it is or isn't public money is not the issue either.

Wrong,  the fact is that what triggers the law in question is PRECISELY whether of not public monies are being used.  More trollish verbiage (or you're a lot less bright than you think.)

The issue is forcing that rate upon the public. There is no intelligent justification for that and anything to the contrary is just rhetoric.

You are free to make an issue of that; but the NJ legislature has passed a bill which the governor will sign that says that the PUBLIC has enough of a compelling interest in energy efficiency, and keeping people employed and at good wages that it's worth the taxpayer dolllars it will cost to create incentives for these kinds of projects.

What I will say about unions pro or con is that there are those that are so closed minded that they believe that electricians working for Merit shop contractors have no right to work.

That's pure nonsense.   No one (union or otherwise has said that....that's your self serving whiny interpretation.   The fact is that non union shops have every right to work/bid on any jobs you like......that aren't getting public money.   And if you were to actually match the pay and working conditions etc that are called for in these contracts......that is "the prevailing wage" you too can bid and win them also!   PLEASE go for it!!!     If you can get the jobs done on time and withing budget, as a taxpayer, I would be HAPPY!!!

That very notion is ridiculous. There are those that can not comprehend that the majority of not only Electricians but also the majority of Americans do not want to join a union that is their choice to make, not mine.

The fact is that most Americans do not yet have a real CHOICE as to whether or not they want to join a union....that's what the Employee Free Choice Act is all about.   http://www.aflcio.org/joinauni...   Do you have a problem with that?

If my employees wanted to join a union they can vote in a secret ballot election to do so or not.

Great!  Now all you have to do to make that proclamation CREDIBLE is say it in public using your own name and the name of your business so that the "employees" know that it would be fine with you if they unionize!

S2340 is not a union vs merit shop issue it is a taxpayer and now consumer issue.

That how you frame it from your perspective to advance your interests, and that's ok......but don't expect anyone to believe that that's the ONLY perspective.

When faced with the increased cost of a green project with prevailing wage the consumer will not contract the project at all.

The legislation does not apply to "consumers" in the sense that it doesn't apply to residential projects.    

It is applicable ONLY to commercial/governmental projects where government monies are being applied.

The private consumer unlike the government cares about one thing, how much is the check they will have to write when the project is completed.

Generally true, but the government also has a totally legitimate interest in stimulating the economy and in reducing greenhouse emissions and reducing our dependence of foreign energy etc.    That's part of why we have a government.

Mandating prevailing rate on the project increases cost and will cancel private projects before they even hit the drawing boards.

Again, you're confusing the issue.   The bill ONLY applys to projects that take PUBLIC FUNDING!!!

The problem for the IBEW (and it is their problem not the publics problem) is the majority of those that have an interest in advancing in their field don't want any part of joining a union.

Again, you're making a self serving broad assertion with no factual specificity to back it up.   If you came out of your anonymous hole and were able to document your assertions with testimonials and actual objective studies we could have a conversation on those points.

In fact my employees have thrown union organizers off our projects with no input one way or the other from me.

Again, you're not credible.  Why should ANYONE believe you?   If you were telling the truth, you would be proud to stand tall and come clean with your name and the name of your company and let you crew tell us about when and where they have "thrown off union organizers" from your "projects".

As an employer I have a responsibility to my employees to explain to them the pros and cons of union membership.

More patronizing self serving bs.

Unfortunately the way the laws are written unions are responsible to no one and guarantee nothing.

Now you've totally lost it with that facially absurd statement.  LOL

The majority of Merit Shop Electricians are trained as well or better than Union Electricians which has been proven over and over again.

That's fine if you believe it.  But it's another vague broad brushed self serving statement coming from an anonymous source too scared to show their face in public.

Anyone can try to argue the point but they will be wrong plain and simple.

So "anyone" who argues with you is "wrong, plain and simple".   Gee, for someone so infallible and all knowing you sure are shy about who you are.   :-)

Merit shop Electricians revel in the fact that they can advance based upon their work ethic and merit and the quality of their work and are not limited to the same pay as every one of their co-workers whether they are productive and knowledgeable or not.

That's nice spin, but the reality is that you want to have the right to pay "your" workers whatever you choose.    You're just framing that desire in the best way possible to deflect from your own agenda.

That theory works on a production line at Government Motors not in the field as a skilled tradesman.

Actually, the problem with General Moters wasn't so much the unions as the assholes in management that killed the electric car and resisted building high mileage vehicles of high quality.    Now they are scrambling to do those things and I wish them well!!!

The bottom line is that your "madness" is over.    You are indeed a troll.    Your language and modus operandi here convinces me that you're a liar.

Now of course, you could prove me wrong!   Just give us your name, and the name of your business.....oh and don't forget to get those alleged "employees" of yours to come forth with their stories of how they had to eject union organizers from your "projects".   I won't be holding my breath.

Lies and corruption are just as toxic whatever end of the political spectrum they come from.

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by: Nick Lento @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 21:55:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ditto (0.00 / 0)

As I said, " Ditto!"

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by: firstamend07 @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 02:34:03 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unions have no more right to work than anyone else (0.00 / 0)

The notion that Merit Shops take work from Unions shops seems to be making a claim that unions are entitled and in some way own construction projects, which is just ridiculous. Unions can not bid on a project. Union electricians are employees plain and simple just as Merit shop electricians are employees. Neither should be entitled to anything more or less than the other.

The unions have negotiated their members such high wages and benefit packages that they must rely on government mandates for the majority of their members to get any work at all.  
That's great for them, but now they should take the contract they have negotiated and compete fairly. The public should not be forced to pay higher construction costs just for the privilege of paying more than they can otherwise pay for the same work.

Dissecting my comments is just nonsense and if it didnt reek of desperation it would be comical
It is funny that when I make claims based on facts such as merit shop contractors are trained well it is deemed arbitrary but when unions make claims based upon nothing it is taken as fact.
We live in a headline society and no one wants to take the time to find the truth about anything anymore. This state and the country are being destroyed right before our eyes and all anyone wants to know is how they can get their hands on some of that public money with no regard to the fact that someone more than likely their great grandchildren will be still paying the bill long after they are gone. It is unfortunate the so many that belong to unions just don't care about taxpayers as long as they are getting what they deem to be their share.

It was said that a contractor should not take the rebates if they don't want to pay prevailing wage.
That comment also misses an important point. The only reason this work is being done at all is because of the rebates making it more affordable. Now add prevailing wage to the project and the cost increases to more than it would without the rebates not to mention adding years to the return on investment, both resulting in projects being canceled before they even see the light of day...no pun intended

There is much more that I am quite sure no one here besides me is aware of.
Has anyone heard of the Green Jobs Act? Does anyone know that the our own congress can not define what a green job is? I know this because I sat in their offices in Washington in May and they told me straight up. Do you know that the Green Jobs Act was just funded with taxpayer money in the so called stimulus package? Who knows here besides me that the training grants for green jobs is only available to labor unions? How is that fair with a 9.5% unemployment rate soon to be double digits. 100% of Americans are paying for that training with their hard earned tax money and 88% are not eligible to be trained.  

So much for hope and change.  

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by: EndTheMadness @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 11:20:42 AM UTC