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Christie's "answers" on warrantless monitoring create more questions

by: Adam L

Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 09:30:00 AM EDT



As Chris Christie digs a deeper hole explains himself over the warrantless monitoring that his office did, he has (as with no-bid contracts and so many other "explanations" for prior actions) given few answers while raising a number of potentially serious questions about the warrantless monitoring and the actions of his office.

For starters, Christie said the following (emphasis mine):

Christie said his office did "everything within the law" and got court permission to track "fugitives or violent felons" -- two groups of people who he said were primary targets.  Very few terrorism-related subjects were tracked in that way, he said.

We were also told the following just a few days earlier:

The documents released by the ACLU say the U.S. Attorney's office in New Jersey identified 79 such cases on or after Sept. 12, 2001 -- 66 of which resulted in a criminal prosecution.

---snip---

Christie said the technology was used to track terrorism suspects, as well as those suspected of other crimes.

So....initially, it was used to track terrorism suspects "and others", but suddenly, it was rarely used to track terrorism suspects.  

Question 1:  Why the contradiction over what this was primarily used for?  Was it used to track terrorism suspects, as originally trumpeted, or was it used for "very few terrorism related suspects", as per Christie's backpeddling a few days later?

Question 2:  If this was really used to track "fugitives and violent felons", as indicated in the first apparent clarification, why (as noted in the Daily Record) didn't Christie's office bother to obtain a warrant - since it would seem to be easy to clear the hurdle if Christie knew they were fugitives or violent felons?

Question 3:  If this resulted in close to 100 prosecutions, how many prosecutions resulted in convictions?

Question 4:  How many of the fugitives were caught as a result of this warrantless monitoring?

Question 5:  If they weren't all caught, what does that say about Christie's ability or the warrantless monitoring program in general, when cell phone GPS tracking can locate such fugitive or violent felon to within a few feet?

Question 6:  Of those caught or convicted, how many fugitives were caught or "violent felons/terrorism suspects" were convicted based on evidence obtained by warrantless monitoring?

Question 7:With the ever shifting description of the targets of warrantless monitoring, Christie not only needs to come clean as to who was targeted but to identify those who were captured, convicted or jailed from this warrantless monitoring.

**********************************************

This is about character and a lack of trustworthiness.  Christie is running specifically on his record as US Attorney, and has done absolutely nothing to convince NJ voters that he has any real concrete plan to help the economy (unlike Corzine, who was ahead of the curve with his own stimulus plan for the State last year).  With each passing week, we find out more cracks in his ethical armor - whether it be (1) his settlement for libel and admission of defaming a political opponent's character or (2) the no-bid contracts or (3) the questionable circumstances surrounding his non-investigation of Menendez before the 2006 Senatorial Race, (4) leading to getting off of the list of US Attorneys to be fired to (5) whether the hundreds of thousands of donations to the republican party helped his brother escape prosecution for securities fraud when Christie was US Attorney.

And now, with the warrantless monitoring, Christie's explanations and lashing out not only don't add up, they create more questions about his motives and agenda.

Adam L :: Christie's "answers" on warrantless monitoring create more questions
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Aren't we going... (0.00 / 0)
above and beyond now? Shouldn't the court orders have been enough?

At this point, I'm thinking the criticism should be directed at the judiciary who approved these actions if there is criticism to be made.

You do realize that Corzine was head of Goldman Sachs when they were fined 110 MILLION (go Elliot Spitzer, I WAS a big fan for a while) dollars for fraudulent trading practices. What does that say about character and trustworthiness? Doesn't the same standard apply?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


no we are not (0.00 / 0)
was Corzine engaged in those practices like Todd Christie was?  

No, he was not.  But if he was, then yes, it would say something.

Funny how these defenses of Christie sound like Christie's defenses as well - it is never him but always someone else's fault.

Nice try.


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
But wait... (0.00 / 0)
Aren't you holding Christie accountable for the actions of his office? Why shouldn't Corzine be held accountable for the actions of his firm? I'm missing the difference..

But yea.. Spitzer was a damn shame...

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
come on - you know the difference (0.00 / 0)
I worked at Andersen - does that make me or the other partners guilty or responsible for what others have done?

Christie was the one who got the court orders and bypassed the warrants.

Corzine didn't in any way have anything to do with ordering or participating in (or probably knowing about) the violations.


Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Comes with the territory... (0.00 / 0)
I doubt Christie got the court orders personally. I'm sure he had an attorney who works for him do it. But that's the responsibility of being the top guy.

If you were CEO of Andersen, then yes, you should make it your buisness to know if your accountants are cooking the books.

Corzine wasn't just an 'employee' of Goldman when they committed fraud, he was CEO. Do I believe that Corzine knew his traders were committing fraud? Nope. I think Corzine knew exactly how they were trading, but thought it was legal.

Again, it seems very parallel to the Christie uproar.

 

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
again, not really (0.00 / 0)
and with Andersen, the CEO was intimately involved in the wrongdoings.

Here is the difference:  Corzine didn't know there was fraud and he thought it was legal.

Christie was in charge of whether court orders or warrants were obtained.  He chose to take the easier path - and we have demonstrated here a number of times/ways how him and the Bush Justice Department played by their own rules.

Christie made these questionable decisions and is attempting to explain them away with answers that make it even more questionable as to why he wouldn't have been able to get a warrant.

Fugitives and violent felons and terrorism suspects?  Under the Bush Justice Department?  If he couldn't have gotten warrants for this, then how effective was he and how strong were these cases?

The public may ultimately not care, but he should explain himself - something he has yet to do on pretty much anything.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Again... (0.00 / 0)
If Corzine THOUGHT it was legal, and Christie THOUGHT it was legal...

What is the difference?

(PS. and he can't not know about it and think it's legal at the same time)

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
talking (or typing) past each other here (0.00 / 0)
Christie knew what he was doing and directing and had a direct hand in this.

And his explanations are making it more questionable.

Besides, this isn't about Corzine or Goldman Sachs, it is about Christie and his overstepping (I'll not go as far as some of my colleagues here w/r/t violating the Constitution though).

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Be very, very careful. (0.00 / 0)
I don't know what w/r/t stands for.

But warrantless cell phone tracking is legal under FISA and pen register/trap.  A USA, or someone working under him/her, can obtain a court order from a Federal judge or magistrate to track cell phone signals via cell towers or GPS.  Note that this order has nothing to do with monitoring the content of the calls.

With limited time, I have been trying to plow through some EFF material.  They are trying to put together the groundwork, through amici briefs, to support Federal judges/magistrates who believe the lower standard of proof to obtain a Court order is insufficient and violates the Fourth Amendment.  

As far as I can tell, 3 judges/magistrates have published opinions decling requests for court orders.  None of these decisions have been appealed, which is the major reason that the issue has not reached the District Court.

Please note that none of the published decisions were from the District of New Jersey.  Thus, we know how many court orders were obtained, but we don't know if any were denied.

Finally, Christie can swat away your questions by saying that he cannot anything involving investigations occuring when he was the USA.


[ Parent ]
A more apt analogy (0.00 / 0)
is that Bush, aided by the BYB memos, thought "enhanced interrogation techniques" were legal.

Turns out, maybe he was wrong.


[ Parent ]
I get all that... (0.00 / 0)
and I'll give clammy the point that Chrisite's hand is direct... while Corzine's was indirect...

but again, at the end of the day.. Christie checks with a judge and says, "Can I have this?"

The judge says "Yes" and we fault Christie?

Shouldn't we fault the judge/legal system?

"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
PS. I'm hoping (0.00 / 0)
someone knows the answer to my easy pass question on the other thread....

Those records are the most parallel to cell phone positions as I can see, what's the policy on getting easy pass info?!?!


"Where ever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai


[ Parent ]
I think that's a great (0.00 / 0)
question.  In the beginning, I held off getting an EZ Pass because I had heard horror stories about folks getting speeding tickets in the mail because the powers that be determined that the driver got from Point A to Point B on the NJ Tpke too quickly, so s/he must have been speeding.

Of course, maybe that's an urban legend.

More seriously, I don't know the answer, but I would hazard a guess that by obtaing an EZ Pass, one gives up one's "expectation of privacy," because the buzz thingy that tracks your time and the amount paid in done by a third party.

The law seems to be that when one make a telephone call (and now we are into the internet and cell phones), simply by dialing the number, which has to be routed by the phone company (third party) before it rings at the other end, one gives up one's expectation of privacy.

Did that make sense?  Frankly, its all weasel words to me.

And I hope I'm wrong.  


[ Parent ]
too funny (0.00 / 0)
I didn't read your comment before posting mine below.

It may be an urban legend, but I heard it too.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Good Lesson (3.00 / 1)
Read before you write.

On other threads people seem to be arguing about that.

But on this one, we are sooooo civilized.


[ Parent ]
EZ Pass (0.00 / 0)
interesting question - and a more troubling thing with that is the fact that the time in between tolls can be tracked to see if you were speeding between - can they give you a speeding ticket then?

BTW, I don't know what your other question was, but the analogy is interesting and the ability to use the info. is troubling as well.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
in part at least.

Indeed the statutes should be amended to provide only for a warrant and not a court order.

I gues I would ask Christie, since he supposedly had such a great legal team, why did he/they  obtain court orders rather than warrants.

Not good enough to gather sufficient evidence, maybe?

(Ya think people are tired of reading our comments yet?)


[ Parent ]
I think the statutes were amended (0.00 / 0)
and Christie still waited 11 months before changing his "policy".

Not 100% on the details but someone wrote it up recently.

Scott Garrett - on the wrong side of, well, everything.


[ Parent ]
I hope you are correct. (4.00 / 1)
Post a link if you find one.  I'll try to poke around, but I don't have a lot of free time.

I would prefer not to see this become a political flame-out.

The Record, which I used to like, is wrong in their pronouncements.
The gov't always needs a warrant to enter a house for search and siezure.  OK, there are exceptions, such as hot pursuit, consent and plain view.

The Christie stuff is about tracking the past whereabouts of a suspect via phone signals.  The issue is that the bar is so low to obtain a court order, the gov't could track the cell phone calls of anyone who works at or writes on Blue Jersey.  Ya know, someone wrote about the Imam who was fighting deportation, ergo, everyone here is a potential terrorist.

The difference between searching a house (btw, no expectation of privacy when you throw out your garbage), and tracking the position of a person under suspicion is just that - the goal is to track positions, not content of conversations.  A house search is to question suspects and look for stuff.  That would be equivalent of seaching for content of a telephone call.  But I guess the Record made their political point, even if they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, legally speaking.

As for EZ Pass, the data collected plots points of entry and/or exit.  By the cell phone logic, gov't would be able to obtain those records, because they concern geographic positions, not persons or contents of a vehicle, eg, drugs, cigarettes, guns or even fugitives.

I'm sure that if anyone has read this far, he/she is bored to death.  I am, and I'm going to bed.


[ Parent ]
and yeah...too bad about Spitzer (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Corzine's Campaign Must Force Christie.... (4.00 / 1)
.....to address all of the issues clammyc is raising.

Christie needs to be held politically accountable for the "legal" abuses of civil liberties under the Bush administration as well as what may have been arguable illegal.

There are policy issues at stake here.   Do we really want a governor with an Orwellian sense of the government's power to invade the privacy of it's people?

If it can be shown that Christie broke the law or bent the rules, that's gravy....but the underlying issues concern civil libertes.

If Christie is really willing to go to the mat to protect and to justify Bush's policies in these areas, I think that's an argument he loses amongst most Americans, and New Jerseyans.   Bush's policies re civil liberties are all the MORE screwed up/dangerous if this right wing Supreme Court deems them legal.

Hell, even Arlen Specter has had enough of the Bush/Cheney/Christie policies!

Corzine will have to take the gloves off (at the appropriate time) and beat the political shit out of Christie or he's gonna lose.   Neither of these candidates is perfect.....but Christie is far worse!

And, if Corzine buys into Christie's bullshit about running a mild mannered campaign.....he will lose.

I'm old enough to remember how Jim Florio was POUNDED 24/7 by right wing hate radio in his narrow loss.    Now there's even more right wing hate radio than there was then and we have 24/7 hate cable from Faux News.   The Republicans through surrogates will do their best to destroy Corzine as a person.

The kinds of issues clammyc and Huntsu and others have raises about Christie's eithics and policies are 100% legitimate and need to be pressed and pressed hard.

Keep it up Adam!!!


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